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unacanta
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We are of course now in a realm of opinions.No, they are the same. It only seems that way if you isolate the Pope’s teachings from the rest of already understood teaching. And blessings to you as well!
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Nicholas_II
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Len
By linking to that article I was only using it to address the point of interpreting that particular passage about Christ being made sin.
I was not advocating anything else, either in the article or in the website in general, that may be considered error by you or me, or anyone else for that matter.
best regards
Nicholas
By linking to that article I was only using it to address the point of interpreting that particular passage about Christ being made sin.
I was not advocating anything else, either in the article or in the website in general, that may be considered error by you or me, or anyone else for that matter.
best regards
Nicholas
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unacanta
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:
yup:
Living in Wyoming, we like windows fixed, seems to keep the cold North Wind and critters out better.
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Alitheia
Guest
Where in the bible does it talk about indulgences for the remission of punishment for forgiven sins?
In Him,
Ali
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Genesis315
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Indulgences are only possible because of grace. We are called to “bring forth fruits worthy of repentance.” If we don’t do it in this life, that must be corrected in the next before we enter Heaven. An indulgence is a pardon of that requirement (and it pertains to this life and/or the next). Since we are all one Body, the sufferings and merits of some members can make up for what is lacking in the others (see Col. 1:24). That is what an indulgence is and it is only possible because of grace. Such works done apart from grace are worthless–and an indulgence is only “effective” if we are in the state of grace.
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Genesis315
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In Col. 1:24 St. Paul talks of making up in his own suffering what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ (suffering is due to sin and, in fact, if we don’t suffer temporally for our sins, we are not sons of God–see Hebrews 12). He also pardons the incestuous man by ceasing the temporal punishment St. Paul assigned to him (being cast out of the fold).
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ni8_shadow
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It’s in the same book where you find “accept Jesus as personal Lord and Savior,” the word Trinity, the list of the Canonical New Testament and the instructions to worship on Sunday.
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Alitheia
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Hi Genesis, thanks for taking the time to reply. You know, I’ve read and reread Col 1:24 in several different translations and am having difficulty seeing what you are saying is there. Probably most particularly because just above in verses 12- 23 it speaks of believers having redemption/reconciliation with forgiveness of sins which is beyond reproach, and without any qualification of lingering temporal punishment further owed:
12 giving thanks to the Father, who has made you fit to share in the inheritance of the holy ones in light. 13 He delivered us from the power of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, *the forgiveness of sins. *
19 For in him all the fullness 10 was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile all things for him, making peace by the blood of his cross 11 (through him), whether those on earth or those in heaven. 21 12 And you who once were alienated and hostile in mind because of evil deeds 22 he has now reconciled in his fleshly body through his death, to present you holy, without blemish, and irreproachable before him, 23 provided that you persevere in the faith, firmly grounded, stable, and not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, am a minister.
While no one would argue that sin may have a temporal consequence for the living sinner, or that God may discipline the earthly sinner (as per Hebrews) I cannot wrap my head around the passage going on to say that Christ’s suffering on the cross was lacking, or that Paul’s suffering completed something that Christ did not. Footnote #14 of the Catholic USCCB-NAB states:
14 [24] What is lacking: although variously interpreted, this phrase does not imply that Christ’s atoning death on the cross was defective. It may refer to the apocalyptic concept of a quota of “messianic woes” to be endured before the end comes; cf Mark 13:8, 19-20, 24 and the note on Matthew 23:29-32. Others suggest that Paul’s mystical unity with Christ allowed him to call his own sufferings the afflictions of Christ.
So I just cannot see how your explanation really fits with the concept of indulgences for the remission of forgiven sins. But I appreciate you taking the time to patiently reply.
In Him,
Ali
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Alitheia
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unacanta
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Concerning your statement “if we don’t suffer temporally for our sins, we are not sons of God”:
Your sins, my sins, the sins of the world were forgiven. (Jn2:2). The debt (punishment) which was owed was removed and nailed to the cross (Col2:14).
Concerning the suffering of which Paul speaks in Col1:24
apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/colossians.htm
1:24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you,] Paul had learned to be content in whatever state he was in and to take pleasure in sufferings (Ppns. 4:11; II Cor. 12:10).
and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ,] Now what Paul cannot have in view here is that somehow Jesus did not suffer enough to save us and that he must now finish the part. It seems more reasonable to think the sufferings he refers to are for the building up of the body of Christ. In this sense he left much work and suffering to be done. So the ‘remainder’ of the suffering of Christ at any time is that which is lacking for the full establishment of his kingdom. (Not for satisfaction of sin, my emphsis)
In Romans 8:17, Paul states that if we suffer with Christ then we will also be glorified together with him. Union with Christ means taking part in who he is and what he does. The Old Testament foretold of both a suffering messiah and a glorious messiah. So if we choose to be united with him then we are partakers of both. You can’t pick and choose which part you want. But it is because of this union that we are able to be called joint-heirs with Christ (Rom. 8:17). The only thing that qualifies us to inherit eternal life is our connection with him. As the only begotten Son of God, that is his inheritance. And since we are united with him, it will be ours too.
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revelations
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No indulgences don’t contradict grace. In order to benefit of a full indulgence, you must be free of attachment to sin. Without grace, this is not possible.
And you won’t find indulgences anywhere in the bible. Maybe some verses kind of allude to it, but it’s no where in there. Indulgences are a full out declaration of the church that is charged with handling the deposit of the faith. Kind of a whatever is bound here on earth will be bound in heaven sort of thing.
Protesting that ever dogma must be described somewhere in the bible is borderline heresy and is exactly what Christ came to abolish.
Christianity isn’t a book, it’s love.
-revelations
And you won’t find indulgences anywhere in the bible. Maybe some verses kind of allude to it, but it’s no where in there. Indulgences are a full out declaration of the church that is charged with handling the deposit of the faith. Kind of a whatever is bound here on earth will be bound in heaven sort of thing.
Protesting that ever dogma must be described somewhere in the bible is borderline heresy and is exactly what Christ came to abolish.
Christianity isn’t a book, it’s love.
-revelations
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japhy
Guest
Paul and the other writers of the epistles wrote plenty about the necessity of suffering with Christ in order to be glorified with him. Jesus himself wrote about picking up our crosses and following him.
To see a (lengthy) Catholic catechesis and exegesis on Col 1:24, read Salvifici Doloris of Pope John Paul II. It’s about how suffering has attained a new meaning in the Christian covenant, and how it is, in fact, a means to salvation (cf. Matthew 25:31-46).
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ni8_shadow
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**Hezekiah 3:4
**
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Alitheia
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::Chuckles:: There is no book of Hezekiah in the bible. (Nice try tho**Hezekiah 3:4
)In Him,
Ali
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ni8_shadow
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You don’t know how many people, both Catholic and non, try to find that book when I quote it.My point was that none of the stuff I mentioned is explicitly in scripture. Trinity, Canon, Sunday worship or even the words “accept Jesus as personal Lord and Savior.”
The Canon came from Tradition outside scripture itself. The rest came about through studying implicit teachings in the Nt and Ot
And that is how we come to understand indulgences, purgatory etc.
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unacanta
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Christians through out the ages have suffered in varing degrees for the sake of His Kingdom. No argument here, The suffering is NOT about us making penace for our sins, but the suffering we all endure for the sake of the cross.
The point is He wrote about picking up the cross and following Him. That means to crucify the flesh (old self), be buried with Him (die and allow Him to live in us), and sit down at the right hand of Him( assume the inheritance that was planned for us at the foundation of the earth). Not continue to carry the cross and looking back to the finished work that He has accomplished and try to complete it by our merits, adding Mary’s or the Saints via an Indulgence or enduring the punishment for sin in Purgatory in which Christ has made atonement.
Concerning Mat:25:31-46
34"Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
It is totally out biblical truth to think that these “sheep” are inheriting the Kingdom because of their deeds in which Christ applauds them. No, their judgment has been rendered when they believed in Jesus for salvation, Christ is only given the reward to them which was prepared at the foundation of the world.
If the “sheep” were inheriting by the deeds which Christ applauds, then anyone doing good deeds would inherit regardless of their belief in HIm. Again, what we see is the reward aspect, not the judgment.
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unacanta
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LOL, same place we find Indulgences, Papal Authority, Purgatory and the Marian Dogmas.
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Alitheia
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In other words, no where can one find indulgences in scripture. I didn’t have to look for the book Shadow, anyone familiar with scripture would know it does not exist. But I’ve heard both your argument and diversion like it lots of times before. You might want to pick up a copy of the movie Luther. Enlightening.
Thanks and have a great day.
In Him,
Ali
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unacanta
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I don’t know Hippolytus seem to think the scriptures were the only place to find knowledge
thriceholy.net/Texts/Hippolytus.html
9. There is, brethren, one God, the knowledge of whom we gain from the Holy Scriptures, and from no other source. For just as a man, if he wishes to be skilled in the wisdom of this world, will find himself unable to get at it in any other way than by mastering the dogmas of philosophers, so all of us who wish to practice piety will be unable to learn its practice from any other quarter than the oracles of God
I do not place much stock nor ever feel the Fathers had a perfect understanding.
Jesus did though…
Matthew 22:29
Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God.
Luke 24:27
And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.
John 7:38
Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him."
There are many more. When Jesus taught he relied upon scripture and when He rebuked, there was always scripture.
Every “dogma” that is binding upon the heart and concience of the believer can be found in Scripture. All else should be filtered through scripture.
We seem to have digressed into something else the Indulgences here I think.
Len
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Michael_Francis
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Thanks to all who participated in this discussion.
This thread is now closed.
MF
This thread is now closed.
MF
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