Indulgences - Then and Now

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In Scott Hahn’s radio interview with Gus Lloyd on January 27th, 2000, he said that indulgences were created to allow those who have left the Church and committed grave offenses to come back to Her more quickly. It would seem, then, that the concept of indulgences is a relatively new one. More evidence for this is that Eastern Orthodox theology is completely lacking the concept of indulgences. This would imply that the theology of indulgences was created after the split of 1054. Also, how did the theology of indulgences go from the welcoming of reverts to the forgiveness of temporal punishment?
 
Hey Jux,
The CCC explains indulgences much better than i could.
1471 The doctrine and practice of indulgences in the Church are closely linked to the effects of the sacrament of Penance.
What is an indulgence?
“An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints.”
“An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin.” The faithful can gain indulgences for themselves or apply them to the dead.

Example, you kill someone. Pretty serious sin. You are sorry, confess and are forgiven. End of story? No, not really, what about the other lives that were affected by this sin? Were there children who will not have a father? Is there a wife who no longer has a husband? Was this a “good” man who will no longer contribute positively to society? Do my own children, family, friends now think murder must be alright since I did it? These to me are the temporal effects of my sin. Yes I’ve been forgiven my sin, but every action we take has an affect on everyone else in this world.

If you’d like to research further i recommend the CCC
Indulgences, 1471-79
for the dead, 1032, 1479
definition and significance of, 1471
effects of, 1498
obtaining God’s indulgences through the Church, 1478-79
 
Tom,
I’ve read part of what the CCC says about indulgences, and I understand that the Catholic teaching is that even though sins are forgiven they must still be punished. However, that’s not what I’m complaining about. I’m saying that the idea of indulgences has changed dramatically over time. Check out what Hahn says on the institution of indulgences and tell me if they were created for what the CCC says they are for.

Here’s the link:
sonsofthunder.net/1_27_00.html
 
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Juxtaposer:
he said that indulgences were created to allow those who have left the Church and committed grave offenses to come back to Her more quickly… Also, how did the theology of indulgences go from the welcoming of reverts to the forgiveness of temporal punishment?
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The sacrament of Penance has undergone some development over the years. These days if you commit a serious sin and go to confession, you might be given a penance of one Our Father and three Hail Marys but it hasn’t always been like this. Back in the early days (even before the A.D. 300s) if a Christian committed a serious sin, he had to confess his sin, receive absolution and do penance (temperal punishment due to sin) and his period of penance in those days might last for years, such as fasting on bread and water for 5 years (a made up example). Only after completing his period of penance would a penitant be readmitted to Holy Communion. Hundreds of years later, the performance of pious acts, such as praying the Psalms and giving alms to the poor, was recognized as suitable substitutes for at least some of the penance. This is pretty much what an indulgences is, pious acts done to lessen or eliminate one’s period of penance. Today, there are only two kinds of indulgences, partial or plenary (full) but not too long ago the indulgences for certain prayers or other pious acts were designated by the number of days they would shorten the penitant’s period of penance. In addition to indulgences involving prayers and giving alms to the poor, some indulgences were granted by the pope or the bishop for the performance of certain pious acts, such as going on a pilgrimage to a particular church or city, going on a crusade to the Holy Land, or donating money for the restoration of St. Peter’s Basillica. (It was abuses associated with this last example that caused so much trouble about the year 1500 with Martin Luther but that’s another story.) Because indulgences shortened or eliminated a penitant’s period of penance (the temperal punishment due to sin), those who committed grave sin could be reconciled to God and the Church more quickly through the use of indulgences.
 
Todd Easton:
The sacrament of Penance has undergone some development over the years. These days if you commit a serious sin and go to confession, you might be given a penance of one Our Father and three Hail Marys but it hasn’t always been like this. Back in the early days (even before the A.D. 300s) if a Christian committed a serious sin, he had to confess his sin, receive absolution and do penance (temperal punishment due to sin) and his period of penance in those days might last for years, such as fasting on bread and water for 5 years (a made up example). Only after completing his period of penance would a penitant be readmitted to Holy Communion. Hundreds of years later, the performance of pious acts, such as praying the Psalms and giving alms to the poor, was recognized as suitable substitutes for at least some of the penance. This is pretty much what an indulgences is, pious acts done to lessen or eliminate one’s period of penance. Today, there are only two kinds of indulgences, partial or plenary (full) but not too long ago the indulgences for certain prayers or other pious acts were designated by the number of days they would shorten the penitant’s period of penance. In addition to indulgences involving prayers and giving alms to the poor, some indulgences were granted by the pope or the bishop for the performance of certain pious acts, such as going on a pilgrimage to a particular church or city, going on a crusade to the Holy Land, or donating money for the restoration of St. Peter’s Basillica. (It was abuses associated with this last example that caused so much trouble about the year 1500 with Martin Luther but that’s another story.) Because indulgences shortened or eliminated a penitant’s period of penance (the temperal punishment due to sin), those who committed grave sin could be reconciled to God and the Church more quickly through the use of indulgences.
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It’s true that practices change over time, but that’s still not the issue. Have you listened to Dr. Hahn’s interview that I gave the link to? It’s not like indulgences went from being hard to attain to handed out for free. I’m saying that what an indulgence is, its essence, has changed. It would be like if Penance used to be used to forgive sin and later turned into the anti-Atkins diet (fasting on bread).
 
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Juxtaposer:
It would seem, then, that the concept of indulgences is a relatively new one. More evidence for this is that Eastern Orthodox theology is completely lacking the concept of indulgences. This would imply that the theology of indulgences was created after the split of 1054.
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Indulgences have been around for a very long time in one form or another. I suggest you read the article about Indulgences in the 1912 Catholic Encyclopedia for an explanation of their development, (www.newadvent.org/cathen/07783a.htm). Tertullian, writing around A.D. 200, referred to a form of indulgence called a libellus pacis.
"During the persecutions, those Christians who had fallen away but desired to be restored to the communion of the Church often obtained from the martyrs a memorial (libellus pacis) to be presented to the bishop, that he, in consideration of the martyrs’ sufferings, might admit the penitents to absolution, thereby releasing them from the punishment they had incurred. Tertullian refers to this when he says (Ad martyres, c. i, P.L., I, 621): “Which peace some, not having it in the Church, are accustomed to beg from the martyrs in prison; and therefore you should possess and cherish and preserve it in you that so you perchance may be able to grant it to others.” (1912 Catholic Encyclopedia, “Indulgences”)

Although indulgences are more developed in the West, an early Eastern Father affirmed the concept of granting indulgences, i.e., of allowing the period of penance to be shortened based on an individual’s performance.
“In 380 St. Gregory of Nyssa (Ep. ad Letojum) declares that the penance should be shortened in the case of those who showed sincerity and zeal in performing it” (1912 Catholic Encyclopedia, “Indulgences”)
 
Forgive my ignorance, but I thought indulgences were tied to the time one spent in purgatory and were quite a seperate issue from performing penance for one’s sins.
 
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prodromos:
Forgive my ignorance, but I thought indulgences were tied to the time one spent in purgatory and were quite a seperate issue from performing penance for one’s sins.
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That’s the misconception that causes the various debates about indulgences. Read the Catechism for the correct information.

Kotton 👍
 
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prodromos:
Forgive my ignorance, but I thought indulgences were tied to the time one spent in purgatory and were quite a seperate issue from performing penance for one’s sins.
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The Catechism of the Catholic Church says, “…every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the ‘temporal punishment’ of sin.” (CCC, 1472)

Indulgences are about lessening, easing or eliminating the “temperal punishment” of sin, whether in performing penance or in Purgatory.
 
Todd Easton:
The Catechism of the Catholic Church says, “…every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the ‘temporal punishment’ of sin.” (CCC, 1472)

Indulgences are about lessening, easing or eliminating the “temperal punishment” of sin, whether in performing penance or in Purgatory.
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That’s still not what Hahn said indulgences were originally for. Was he just wrong?
 
Juxtaposer, we are going on what you SAID Scott Hahn SAID some 4 years ago on a radio program.

Absent a transcript of the program, I submit that there really is nothing to argue about here. You’ve been given the definition of what an indulgence is according to the TEACHING OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH in its CATECHISM.

I don’t know what Mr. Hahn have said, in what context, but we really need to have a little more than one poster’s " I say that this man said and it contradicts what posters say the church teaching is, so I’m going to keep on questioning the church teaching based on the fact that I said that this man said and it contradicts what posters say the church teaching is" ad infinitum.

Okay?
 
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Juxtaposer:
Tom,
I’ve read part of what the CCC says about indulgences, and I understand that the Catholic teaching is that even though sins are forgiven they must still be punished. However, that’s not what I’m complaining about. I’m saying that the idea of indulgences has changed dramatically over time. Check out what Hahn says on the institution of indulgences and tell me if they were created for what the CCC says they are for.

Here’s the link:
sonsofthunder.net/1_27_00.html
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Dear Juxtaposer,
I am currently listening to the broadcast and have not yet gotten to the part you mentioned. But I should point out that the FIRST thing Dr. Hahn recommends is to read the Catechism articles 1471- (I can’t remember what he said was the last article) and then he goes on to give this word for word definition “Remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sin.”

If I can listen to the point which you heard I’ll get back to you. But from reading some of your other posts it seems to me that you are being drawn to the Church and see the truth of what she teaches as she is protected by Christ and guided by the Holy Spirit as He promised, but that you are trying to fight the pull and looking for reasons not to have to join the Church. My advice would be to pray about it and ask the Holy Spirit work in you to take you to where you belong.

God’s peace and blessing in Christ
Greg
 
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Juxtaposer:
In Scott Hahn’s radio interview with Gus Lloyd on January 27th, 2000, he said that indulgences were created to allow those who have left the Church and committed grave offenses to come back to Her more quickly. It would seem, then, that the concept of indulgences is a relatively new one. More evidence for this is that Eastern Orthodox theology is completely lacking the concept of indulgences. This would imply that the theology of indulgences was created after the split of 1054. Also, how did the theology of indulgences go from the welcoming of reverts to the forgiveness of temporal punishment?
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Juxtaposer,
I have just finished listening to the program. If it hadn’t been the link in your post I would have almost thought we listened to different programs. Dr. Hahn did NOT say the Church “created” indulgences as you suggest, in fact he said specifically they are “NOT an ecclisiastical invention” (word for word but emphasis mine). He was describing the use of the idea of “number of days off” (such as 5 years, 3 months etc) and explained that this was NOT time off from purgatory (a very common misconception) but was started during the “penitential discipline” of the Church during the MIDDLE AGES. He mentioned it was common practice for a person who committed grave sin (e.g. adultery, theft, murder) to be kept from complete communion (e.g. could not recieve the Eucharist etc) for a number of months or years as temporal punishment for their sin. He mentioned very sound reasons the Church did this, you can listen to it again if you don’t remember them. During that discussion he mentioned that the Church said the indulgences could be used to commute the amount of time one would have to spend outside complete communion with the Church. He never said they were “created” during the MIDDLE AGES. An example would be someone who committed adultery and was given as temporal penance, 3 years of time to wait before being reinstitued in full commuion with the Church. If this person recieved an indulgence under the proper state of grace etc and was given “3 years” of indulgence time, it meant that they then could be admitted back into full communion right away. Is that clear?

I cannot say for sure because I was not with you when you listened, nor do I know your heart, but I’d ask you an honest question. Could you have been listening to the broadcast with an ear to find error as opposed to an ear listening for truth?

In Christ,
Greg
 
Jux,

Have you been back to this forum since your last post? Was wondering if you read the last couple posts.
 
Is Pugatory where we do penance for sins committed on Earth that penance was never done for? Is the nature of penance to punish, to sanctify, or both?
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gsaccone:
Jux,

Have you been back to this forum since your last post? Was wondering if you read the last couple posts.
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Sorry, gsaccone. I’m a student, and school has started. Hence, I have less time to spend on these forums.
 
I am not going to say I oppose the concept, but I have problems with the transactional nature of indulgences and therefore I ignore the concept.

The church justifies indulgences by using the “treasury of merits” of the Saints to satisfy the need for temporal punishment. I don’t think the church ever had to use such logic, if it has the power to bind and loosen that should be sufficient to my way of thinking, yet the Treasury of Merits has been the basis of indulgences for several hundred years at least.

That is like saying these “merits” have been stored up for use at the discretion of the church, like leftovers in the fridge. It’s a good thing we live in the third millenium, had we lived before St Stephen was martyred there wouldn’t be any merits at hand to distribute and we’d have to ask for credit.

Quite frankly, for years whenever I said my prayers I always ignored the indulgences that would be listed along with the prayer and I think most people still do. I also don’t get why anyone but a priest would want a book listing the Norms and Grants yet I see them for sale at the local Catholic bookstore.

Far too transactional!, it’s like using some kind of spiritual bookkeeping, or bartering. Now I understand that the Western church has been at this a while and I will accept that is OK for them and their way of thinking, but the Eastern church does not teach indulgences per se, it doesn’t fit in the understanding and I am much more comfortable with the Eastern church’s understanding.
 
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Juxtaposer:
Is Pugatory where we do penance for sins committed on Earth that penance was never done for? Is the nature of penance to punish, to sanctify, or both?

Sorry, gsaccone. I’m a student, and school has started. Hence, I have less time to spend on these forums.
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Actually forgive me, I wasn’t trying to be antagonistic and I completely understand what it is to be busy. Hope your studies are going well 🙂

Purgatory is in essence, as the verb it’s derived from - purge - suggests, a purging of the stain of sin before we enter heaven. Now that stain can be 1) the persistent attachment to a particular sin (i.e lust, greed etc) or 2) the remaining effects that our sins have had on ourself and more importantly the effect they’ve had on those around us or on mankind in general.

With regard to:
  1. Nothing unclean can enter into heaven (Revelation maybe 8:4? don’t have my bible with me at the moment) and so we cannot enter heaven until our souls are free from attachment to sin, for that attachment to sin makes our soul unclean. Therefore in this sense purgatory is a consequence of us wanting to be clean before entering God’s house. Suppose you were going to visit the President (or imagine some figure who you respect greatly) and on the way to the White House you tripped and fell in mud. You are now soiled and covered in dirt. But you are already at the residence and you don’t want to be late so you proceed to the door. Even if the President invites you in, you of your own accord and out of love and respect, will want to clean yourself off before stepping into his immaculate White House. So it isn’t really God punishing you, but more you being Sanctified.
  2. God gives us the opportunity to expiate the effects (or at least some of the effects) of our sins while on earth, perhaps through suffering or good deeds etc. The term “indulgence” can be used to express some of these ways. If the effects of our sins are not completely expiated before death then Purgatory will be the location for the completion. Imagine if you did something like commit adultery but never knew TRULY how much suffering it put not only your wife through, but your children and all those close to you. Now if it could be somehow made known to you the EXACT suffering those innocents experienced because of you behavior, imagine what sorrow and pain would grip your soul. How much would you grieve at knowing the pain you caused others? That, my brother in Christ, is in a way a purging, an expiation for what others have suffered at your hands. That is probably similar to what may happen in Purgatory. Again, Sanctification rather than punishment.
Hope that helps,
God bless in your studies and your journey,
Greg
 
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