Indult societies

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adamsaj

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could anyone tell me about the difference between different indult societies? i am thinking in particular of the Institute of Christ the King and FSSP. i know there are people here discerning these groups, and i am curious as to what causes you to lean in one direction or the other.

also, the Institute and FSSP are the only ones that i really know about, but im sure there are more. if you know about any others i would be interesed in hearing about them.

thanks
 
Well the FSSP arose when Pope John Paul II declared that Abp. Lefebvre had excommunicated himself and the bishops the Abp. had just ordained against his agreement with Rome. The Holy Father welcomed the creation of the FSSP by 8 or 12, I forget, priests formerly of the Society of St Pius X who wished to stay in good standing with Rome. The Institute of Christ the King is more recent. I don’t know if you are on Facebook but there is a group called FSSP Supporters and I put up a question there like yours: someone answered:
Michael [surname + location removed] said
on Jul 26, 2007 at 6:39 AM
You know I also am curious about this too. I have tried searching about this on the internet but I think the best way to find out is to talk to FSSP and ICRSS priests themselves. From what little I know, the ICRSS have a slightly (or maybe more than slightly) different spirituality than the FSSP. Also, I think that the ICRSS are less involved with the Vatican II controversy but I think that might have more to do with their founding than anything else, since you know that FSSP came out of the SSPX initially and ICRSS was founded in a diocese in Africa I believe. Also FSSP is of pontifical right while ICRSS is of diocesean right I think. Anyways that’s some of what I’ve heard and read. Honestly, I think both are great, but I have had some interest recently in ICRSS but the only problem is that their only seminary only teaches in French, and I happen to find French difficult. Anyways, hopefully someone else who knows more will enlighten us.
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and an FSSP priest said
Fr. Durham wrote
on Jul 28, 2007 at 5:47 PM
Please, no discussion about the Institute of Christ the King. I am willing to bite my tongue and not tell everyone the truth about them. Let’s just say that the FSSP has nothing in common with the blue biretta people, or blue hats as they are known in this country.
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He later explained a bit more:
Fr. Durham (no network) wrote
at 9:16am on August 3rd, 2007
It was not my intention to forbid all discussion regarding the ICRSS and, in fairness, I found your description of their order to be quite accurate.
Here in England, many young men are attracted to the external beauty of the Institute’s liturgy. Nevertheless, I think that you will see that no one of sound mind could support an ‘order’ in which the founder must pretend to be a monsignor… The lack of sincerety on the part begins there but extends much further. I have personally seen the founding documents of the Insitute, in which they are NOT granted the 1962 liturgy but rather a hybrid conventual Mass (i.e. 1965) as well as the letter from a Roman congragation explicitly stating that Fr. Wach is NOT a monsignor. As they say in America, it is a free country and people can discuss the ICRSS on this or any other forum… but I think that we can do much better by concentrating on praying for the FSSP and hoping that exclusively traditional orders flourish in the Church.
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Fr. Durham (no network) wrote
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at 9:19am on August 3rd, 2007
In response to several queries regarding the difference(s) between the FSSP and the Institute, I have made public a private reply that was given to one of our members. It is a private opinion, based on fact, and the members of our group are entitled to disagree.
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Someone else answered
Jason [name+locationremoved] wrote
at 6:20pm on August 7th, 2007
In defense of the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest, I don’t think Monsignor Wach (their founder) has ever pretended to be a “Monsignor” as a member of the Papal Household. Rather, Monsignor Wach was given the title of “Monsignor” when he became the Vicar General of the Diocese of Mouila in Gabon, which is an approved practice of titling vicar generals and vicars capitular (now called “diocesan administrators”) that began under Pope Pius X. Friends of the Institute, including some bishops and cardinals, continue to refer to Father Wach as “Monsignor” as a matter of courtesy even though Monsignor Wach is no longer the Vicar General of the Diocese of Mouila and technically has no official claim to the title of “Monsignor.” Here in the United States, for example, we continue to address former Presidents as “Mr. President” out of courtesy and respect for the office they once held. I don’t think the situation with Monsignor Wach is really all that different.
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I am completely stunned at what I read up above. Nothing against you NoPlaceLikeRome, you did nothing but report what you received and I thank you for that.

Every order, whether TLM, NO, sedevacantist or schismatic I have found people that have bashed it. It is so sad. The FSSP and the Institute can’t even work together for the same MAIN cause they both working for. Maybe I am completely missing the point of what that one FSSP said about the Institute.

I have realized one thing. No matter what order or diocese I could decide on, someone is going to critize. One thing I always loved about the Church when I was young and naive was that we were all ONE.

I leave in February for my canidate year with the Institute. I have been to quite a few TLM with the Institute. Maybe I am not ‘schooled’ enough in the Missal of 1965, but I have a 1962 Missal and everything seemed to follow it fine. Didn’t notice anything different. I am not going to say he is wrong about the 1965 thing, but I don’t see it.

YOUR QUESTION.

I don’t know much about the FSSP. One thing about the Institute is that they are small. I know they are growing, but as of now they are small enough that I can get to know the other Priests. According to Msgr. Schmitz, they want to keep the Institute small enough that everyone will know everyone. But the TLM is growing so much, I don’t see this as possible.

The charism of the Institute is also something I really like. Wikipedia does a great job of explaining that.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_of_Christ_the_King_Sovereign_Priest
 
Yeah, it’s hard for me because they [the Institute and the FSSP] don’t overlap geographically, so what we have where I live is the FSSP, so that is the only one I know about.
 
Where are the ICRSS apostolates?

In other words, where do their priests go after ordination? We know where nearly every FSSP priest is in the world–their website even gives us a map. What about the ICRSS?

Also, the FSSP has a European seminary, and the ICRSS has oratories in America. I’d like to know about the ICRSS in America, and the FSSP in Europe.
 
Well the FSSP have a little bitty church IN Rome. AFAIK the ICRSS don’t. The FSSP Church is called San Gregorio dei Muratori and it’s very out of the way, but findable. Very nice. (“This is so poetic…” said my friend after we had to go down dark alleys past banks of motorcycles in the Eternal City to find the ‘Mass of Ages’.)
 
Ok, this is COMPLETELY by chance I found this.

It’s about Msgr. Wach with the Institute. It is translated from french.

“After having received last June the cap of Benoit XVI, our Institute had the immense joy and grace to see its General Prior, Mgr Wach, to discuss with Its Holiness the Pope at the time of the general Audience, places Saint-Pierre, October 3, 2007. The Pope immediately recognized our General Prior while addressing to him in French these pleasant words: “How you are, Monseigneur”. Then engaged a dialogue between the Pope and Mgr Wach, on the last developments of our Institute, with which it was pleased.”

icrsp.org/Evenements-2007/AudienceBXVI/AudienceBXVI.htm

If Pope Benedict can refer to him as Monsignor, then I would tend to believe he is and I will refer to him as the same. The greeting is quoted, so it should be what he said.
 
Pious_Mat said:
Where are the ICRSS apostolates?

In other words, where do their priests go after ordination? We know where nearly every FSSP priest is in the world–their website even gives us a map. What about the ICRSS?

Also, the FSSP has a European seminary, and the ICRSS has oratories in America. I’d like to know about the ICRSS in America, and the FSSP in Europe.
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There is a good list of the oratories for the Institute on the homepage of the website:

institute-christ-king.org

The only list I can find for outside the US is from the German website. Below is a quick list…if you would like the list, PM me and I will email you it as an attachment.

(the town names are the Diocese, not the actual town names)
Germany- Munich, Trier
Austria-Salzburg
Switzerland-Basel
Italy-Florence (seminary and convent), Rome (actually in Rome, someone earlier said there isn’t one there)
France-Versailles, Lille, Montpellier, Moulins, Nizza, Rennes, Cahors, Bordeaux, Tulle, Agen, Limoges, Toulouse
Belgium-Brussels, Tournai
Spain-Madrid, Toledo, Pamplona
Irland-Limerick
Britain-Liverpool
Africa-Libreville, Mouila

What would you like to know about the Institute in America. I don’t know much, except about the ones in St. Louis and Chicago.
 
freudmacher said:
Ok, this is COMPLETELY by chance I found this.

It’s about Msgr. Wach with the Institute. It is translated from french.

“After having received last June the cap of Benoit XVI, our Institute had the immense joy and grace to see its General Prior, Mgr Wach, to discuss with Its Holiness the Pope at the time of the general Audience, places Saint-Pierre, October 3, 2007. The Pope immediately recognized our General Prior while addressing to him in French these pleasant words: “How you are, Monseigneur”. Then engaged a dialogue between the Pope and Mgr Wach, on the last developments of our Institute, with which it was pleased.”

icrsp.org/Evenements-2007/AudienceBXVI/AudienceBXVI.htm

If Pope Benedict can refer to him as Monsignor, then I would tend to believe he is and I will refer to him as the same. The greeting is quoted, so it should be what he said.
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In Europe the title of Monsignor is used much more loosely then in North America. Here it is in refferance to a member of the Papal Household, like Msgr. Schmitz, while in Europe is common address high-ranking priests and bishops as Monsignor. In any case, there is nothing wrong with reffering to him as Msgr. Wach.

I find the FSSP is often very uncharitable towards other traditional priests, especially the Institute.
Well the FSSP have a little bitty church IN Rome. AFAIK the ICRSS don’t. The FSSP Church is called San Gregorio dei Muratori and it’s very out of the way, but findable. Very nice. (“This is so poetic…” said my friend after we had to go down dark alleys past banks of motorcycles in the Eternal City to find the ‘Mass of Ages’.)
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The Institute has an Oratory in Rome. It is larger and more beautiful then the FSSP church.
 
Can’t any Bishop confer the title of Monsignor at his discretion?

And what is the difference in charism between the FSSP and the ICRSS?
 
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