Infinite vs Finite Time

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If the afterlife in heaven would be infinite, why don’t believers simply live the safest life in order to get into heaven, and then worship and do everything enjoyable then? (I guess nuns and monks really believe this).

Why enjoy seeing a 2hr movie in this lifetime when instead in heaven you will be full of joy for eternity? Instead, you could’ve spent those 2hrs on Earth saving other people to your God. After all, time for any and all enjoyment can be in the eternity (whereby it seems the definition of time as we know it does not exist, so we use our word ‘forever’ to convey this idea).
 
Hi,

A wise priest hold me to keep eternity in mind in everything that I do. Right now, we can prepare for heaven. When one looks at life from the perspective that you question does, one realizes that much in life is trivial.

I can agree with your sentiments and try to live my life like that. I have to be honest, I sure would rather be subscribing and playing World of Warcraft at times, but other than this forum and checking my email and ebay auctions, I really don’t spend any time on the computer. After years and years of pursuing things and pretty much having everything in the world that one could want to have, I have realized how pointless it is.

I wrote earlier yesterday that we exist becuase God created us and wants us to be in Union with Him. Everything that we do in this life should be to deepen and grow in that Union with God. That alone matters. When one pursues Union with God, the rest will fall into place.

I used to not care about people. I used to be quite callous, when I first became a Christian and later a Catholic I was concerned about this and brought this up to priests and ministers working with me. Finally at a loss, I followed the counsel and went to sit in front of Jesus in Adoration. I slowly found myself falling into love with God and then lo and behold my views on the world and other people changed. It has been a very long road and one that I am thankful to have taken.

But fast foward to now, I wish to do everything with Heaven, I hope to make it there by God’s grace, in mind. I find myself not afraid of dying as I used to be. I find myself welcoming the idea of Heaven more and more. Each day that I live I am, by God’s grace, getting detatched from the world and those things of it. I am seeing what is more important, and that is fostering and growing deeper in Union with God and helping others to come to that Union as well. This is what matters. To know, love, and serve God and to love others.

Nuns and monks actually live with the perspective of heaven now. They are doing everything [generally speaking] with God’s grace to foster and grow deeper in their union with God.

Sorry if I rambled on, but your question got me to thinking.

God bless.
 
Sorry if I rambled on, but your question got me to thinking.

God bless.
No it’s ok, I appreciate your honest answer. My point is though that something as trivial as a 2hr movie should be perhaps immoral from your point of view given that you have infinite time for the joyous things in heaven, and that anything less than 100% of free time devoted to God should seem immoral.
 
God must be the focus of our lives but there is nothing wrong with a little relaxation.

St Anthony was once seen by a hunter relaxing with the other monks, the hunter was shocked thinking that the monks should be penetential and severe all the time. St Anthony, knowing what the hunter was thinking, came over to him and asked him to draw back his bow. The hunter did so. St Anthony asked him to draw it back further, the hunter did so. Again St Anthony asked him to draw it back still further. The hunter replied, “if I draw it back any more, the bow will snap”. St Anthony explained that it was the same with the brothers, that they had to relax sometimes or they would break. I am discerning a vocation to the contemplative life and I was warned against trying to live like a nun before I entered, as it was not God’s will, I would not be given the graces needed to sustain such a hard life.

It is all about intention and focus, if your life is focused on God and you take a little time to refresh yourself, that is fine. If you indulge your own desires and constantly put God and serving others second to that, that is wrong. If a parent never allowed their children any fun or treats, that would be very wrong.

St Therese’s mother Zelie had a sister who was a Visitation nun. When her sister had criticised Marie and Pauline (St Therese’s older sisters) for some innocent enjoyment, Zelie said that she wanted the girls to live as if they were already in a convent, and that was wrong. As Zelie, along with her husband, is being considered for beatification, I feel that we can trust her judgement. As every religious community I’ve visited has had fun times, from watching a suitible movie, to eating cake and ice cream on a Sister’s birthday, to a picnic, I am confident that God intends us to enjoy this life too.
 
If the afterlife in heaven would be infinite, why don’t believers simply live the safest life in order to get into heaven, and then worship and do everything enjoyable then? (I guess nuns and monks really believe this).

Why enjoy seeing a 2hr movie in this lifetime when instead in heaven you will be full of joy for eternity? Instead, you could’ve spent those 2hrs on Earth saving other people to your God. After all, time for any and all enjoyment can be in the eternity (whereby it seems the definition of time as we know it does not exist, so we use our word ‘forever’ to convey this idea).
. . . . or, if you truly believed would you not attend Mass as many times as possible on Sunday and work your schedule to be in Mass during the weekday as well. And, if you truly understood in WHOSE presence you were actually sitting during Mass, would not be wearing the best “Sunday clothes” you have in your closet?

I believe the saints are those who in developing a “personal relationship” with JESUS, truly make it personal, “as if” HE is present to them physically. When they pray, they see HIM listening. When at Mass they see HIM raised at the altar. When in confession, they feel HIM on the other side counseling and guiding.

Somehow, the saints are able to get through the 5 senses which define us and limit us and add JESUS as their 6th sense which controls all others and focuses their lives.
 
If the afterlife in heaven would be infinite, why don’t believers simply live the safest life in order to get into heaven, and then worship and do everything enjoyable then? (I guess nuns and monks really believe this).
You ask a very interesting question and a thought provoking one.

Yes we should try to live the “safest” life we can here, seeking through prayer and action to become as Christlike as possible every day.
However I think that you perhaps have an “odd” view of what being a Christian means, for you seem to think that “living a safe life” and “everything enjoyable” as being two different things. They are not at all.
Unless you somehow equate “enjoyable” with “sinful” :rolleyes:
Why enjoy seeing a 2hr movie in this lifetime when instead in heaven you will be full of joy for eternity?
If I am Christian, in a state do grace, building up the Kingdom, seeking to be open to God in all that I say and do, why should I postpone enjoying a movie here? Why not find joy in the movie (assuming it is a “good” movie) AND look forward to joy in heaven?
Instead, you could’ve spent those 2hrs on Earth saving other people to your God. After all, time for any and all enjoyment can be in the eternity (whereby it seems the definition of time as we know it does not exist, so we use our word ‘forever’ to convey this idea).
This seems to me to be the statement that doesn’t make sense. Do you believe that we do not find joy in helping others find God? That somehow we have to be somber and without joy to do this? You mentioned above how monks and nuns seem to live the “safest lives” and perhaps to an extent they do, but I’ve known many religious who found great joy in their lives and never felt that it was a choice between joy now OR joy later. Instead it is Joy now AND joy later.

As to your movie or evangelizing concept, one should evangelize always and the most powerful tool of evangelization is action. I can evangelize at a movie theater by holding a door, letting someone go ahead of me in line and other small acts of Love, just as well as on a street corner handing out bible tracts.

Perhaps I’m misunderstanding what you are trying to ask, but I just don’t see this as an either/or question…

Peace
James
 
No it’s ok, I appreciate your honest answer. My point is though that something as trivial as a 2hr movie should be perhaps immoral from your point of view given that you have infinite time for the joyous things in heaven, and that anything less than 100% of free time devoted to God should seem immoral.
It would seem that way and I can understand why you would feel this way.

However, we are not perfect, and we human sometimes need to relax and take recreation periods, I am not saying to and buy the nastiest movie out there that’s akin to porno and relax away. But a good wholesome movie like Sound of Music or one of the St. Ignatius Press movies are good.

It depends on what one watches or does. One can also do everything in a state of continuous prayer, so in a way they still are preparing for eternity. This is called short prayer.

God bless.
 
The more somebody becomes eternal-minded, the more indeed they will see a conflict between their temporal and their eternal pursuits. It is a conflict, moreover, that will never be fully overcome, given the human needs, including psychological needs, that must be met in our life.

It is possible to be a quite saintly human being without living one’s life in “eternity mode”. One simply needs to live a temporal human life in awareness of the Holy Spirit. We will not truly perceive Eternity, after all, until we have our pneumatikon soma.

ICXC NIKA.
 
The more somebody becomes eternal-minded, the more indeed they will see a conflict between their temporal and their eternal pursuits. It is a conflict, moreover, that will never be fully overcome, given the human needs, including psychological needs, that must be met in our life.

It is possible to be a quite saintly human being without living one’s life in “eternity mode”. One simply needs to live a temporal human life in awareness of the Holy Spirit. We will not truly perceive Eternity, after all, until we have our pneumatikon soma.

ICXC NIKA.
What in the world is penumatikon soma? I have never heard of the term.

God bless.
 
JRKH: As to your movie or evangelizing concept, one should evangelize always and the most powerful tool of evangelization is action. I can evangelize at a movie theater by holding a door, letting someone go ahead of me in line and other small acts of Love, just as well as on a street corner handing out bible tracts.
Well put.

The talents and craftsmanship displayed in a good film are gifts from God manifested in the artists and performers who made the movie. When I enjoy a movie, I’m also recognizing some of the many beneficent actions of God, in the same way that listening to music by a great composer or singer or looking at a great work of art brings me closer to that realization. If the work of art examines a piece of the human condition, such as bravery in a selfless action, or the recognition of our shared humanity (the operating engine of great comedy), or the tragedy which derives from our fallen state, it brings me closer to God by helping me examine His work from a different angle, just as looking at the night sky from my telescope does. I am giving pleasure to my family by taking them to a movie, it sometimes gives us a chance to talk about issues in the film, and the money I spend on the ticket contributes to the financial well-being of the theater owner and employees, those who distribute the film, and the film’s creators.

Even if the only value I derive from the film is a good laugh, Humor is God’s creation, too. It was given to us to help enjoy and understand (and sometimes endure) life better.
 
If the afterlife in heaven would be infinite, why don’t believers simply live the safest life in order to get into heaven, and then worship and do everything enjoyable then? (I guess nuns and monks really believe this).

Why enjoy seeing a 2hr movie in this lifetime when instead in heaven you will be full of joy for eternity? Instead, you could’ve spent those 2hrs on Earth saving other people to your God. After all, time for any and all enjoyment can be in the eternity
This was really encouraging. It makes sense to me. It is not like you are saying watching movies is sinful. They just aren’t as important as people’s souls are.
 
I think we can know God better through the pleasant and joyful things God gave us, just as we can through asceticism.

As an example, check out the Blessed Pier Giorgio Frassati (here’s a good biography of him: bettnet.com/frassati/) who lived in Turin, Italy from 1901 to 1925. The heir to a wealthy family, he was also a champion skiier and mountain climber who enjoyed experiencing God through His creation, Nature. He probably would have enjoyed the X-Games and Crossfit if he was alive today. He used his love of outdoor sports to evangelize the Catholic faith, as well - he was a very charismatic young man and attracted a following of fun-loving young men that humorously dubbed themselves “Tipi Loschi,” “The Shady Ones.” He would invite them to go hiking or skiing and quietly invite a priest along to preach to them up in the mountains. He died from a disease he probably acquired while ministering to the poor.

If you look at the photos of Pier and his friends on that website, you can tell that his love of Christ didn’t hurt his love of life and the pleasures of life - he and his friends obviously enjoyed good company, good food, cigars, and a glass of wine. Or two. He loved going to the opera and museums and the theater. Yet Pier demonstrated the Beatitudes in his daily life - he spent most of his time giving away everything he had to the poor, often including the clothes off his back and the shoes off his feet, and quietly supported numerous poor families and orphans (the poor of Turin were the ones who petitioned the Bishop for the cause of his canonization, and they lined the streets of Turin by the thousands for his funeral). He was active in the Catholic social justice movement against Mussolini and fascism (once singlehandedly beating down and chasing off a fascist mob that attacked him), He attended Mass daily, prayed the rosary, and practiced regular adoration of the Eucharist, which he credited with his desire to aid the poor. He was beatified by Pope John Paul II in 1990 and his feast day is July 4.

George Weigel, in his wonderful book “Letters to a Young Catholic” wrote of the exuberant personality of the great Catholic author and apologist G.K. Chesterton, who loved spending time with Hilaire Belloc at the Olde Chesire Cheese Pub on Fleet Street in London, laughing, talking, and enjoying good food and drink. Weigel wrote that Chesterton stood squarely against the Gnostic belief that matter and the things of this world are “bad,” that stuff doesn’t count, that the material world is an unnecessary and wicked distraction, and thus that the Incarnation and the Sacraments (the tangible signs of inward Grace) ultimately don’t matter. Chesteron defended the *sacramental imagination * - “the core Catholic conviction that God saves and sanctifies the world through the materials of this world.” As Catholics, we are very concerned with “stuff,” the things of the material world. We honor God incarnating among us as flesh and blood. We recognize that we are a spirit bound to a material body, and that what the body does affects the spirit, just as the spirit can affect the body. We’re concerned with bread and wine and what it becomes, and water and salt and oil and chrism, and the need to care for each other’s physical needs as we grow old and sick and weary, as an expression of our Faith through Works. We think the physical act of sex is a *good thing *and deeply pleasurable and uplifting and creative as we bond with our beloved in marriage, with the chance of creating new life. We think it’s so important the Sacrament of Marriage requires it.

The path of asceticism is an admirable one and a good path to holiness, but for others, there is no need to put aside “everything enjoyable” - God provided much to us to make us happy, and like the Blessed Pier, it may actually improve our chances of salvation through the bonds of fellowship and collegiality it can help us form with others. You can be saintly and have fun.

As Weigel wrote, “The sacramental imagination gets the world into proper focus. Its critics often say that the Catholic Church is all about denying the world and ourselves; G.K. Chesterton insisted that Catholicism was about thick steaks, cigars, pubs, and laughter. Catholicism is more than that, of course. But it’s also that, and to miss that is to miss something crucial in the Catholic world. The Catholic world isn’t nervous about its legitimate pleasures. In fact, it’s a world in which those pleasures can be fully enjoyed because they’re understood for what they really are - anticipations of the joy that awaits us in the Kingdom of God. And that, I suggest, is a lot more appealing than granola-and-Corona-Lite gnosticism.”

So whether you think of the Blessed Pier beaming with joy in the sunlight on the top of Mount Blanc, or good ol’ G.K. Chesteron guffawing with a glass of port and slapping Hillaire Beloc on the back during a convivial evening in the Chesire Cheese Pub, don’t feel guilty for enjoying the good things of this world, which were vouchsafed to us by God.
 
This was really encouraging. It makes sense to me. It is not like you are saying watching movies is sinful. They just aren’t as important as people’s souls are.
Exactly. The comment about evangelizing by holding doors, being a nice person, etc. has no bearing on religion but rather a morality in which we live. I do these things too. Does that also mean that when I do these things that I am proselytizing and the surrounding people should not believe? Of course not.
 
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