Inner Life of the Trinity &Theology of the Body

[levinas12]

What did St. John Paul II mean when he said in his talks on the the theology of body that marital coitus is an icon of the inner life of the Trinity?

 

[PluniaZ]

Well, in the act of sex, three human persons become one. Which has always seemed to me to be, in some way, a reflection of the Trinity.

“And the two shall become one flesh.’ So they are no longer two but one flesh.” Mark 10:8

 

[Fiasco]

Well, in the act of sex, three human persons become one. Which has always seemed to me to be, in some way, a reflection of the Trinity.

“And the two shall become one flesh.’ So they are no longer two but one flesh.” Mark 10:8

And the Love between Father and Son is TOTAL Self-giving Love in both directions, nothing held back, reinforcing the Church’s condemning of any form of contraception.

The Trinity is the divine Family, and marriage and family life should be a faithful reflection of that…as you inferred.

Frank Sheed’s Theology and Sanity, Ignatius Press 1978, page 122:

…it is the oneness of one infinite Godhead triply uttered: a communication of infinite truth and infinite love among three, infinite self-revelation, infinite self-donation, companionship at the level of divinity.

Stunning words!!!
And there’s more like that.

 

[levinas12]

And the Love between Father and Son is TOTAL Self-giving Love in both directions, nothing held back …

Yes and yes and yes … and that’s why the Second Person of the Trinity is not “second in status” … otherwise, the Second Person would be “overwhelmed” or “dominated” by the First Person (Father) … likewise in a human marriage, the wife is not “second in status” or “inferior”; she is not “subordinated” but “equal” like Eve who was taken from “Adam’s rib not his foot”.

 

[levinas12]

Well, in the act of sex, three human persons become one. Which has always seemed to me to be, in some way, a reflection of the Trinity.

“And the two shall become one flesh.’ So they are no longer two but one flesh.” Mark 10:8

I like what you’re saying here … but who is the third human person (the baby?)

 

[PluniaZ]

I like what you’re saying here … but who is the third human person (the baby?)

There are three people: the father, the mother and their child.

 

[omgriley]

I like what you’re saying here … but who is the third human person (the baby?)

Yes. Just as the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Love between the Father and the Son, so too does the child proceed from the love between the mother and father.

The love that the Father and Son have for one another is so strong and so deep that it is actually personified from eternity as the Holy Spirit. All three being co-equal, co-eternal, one supreme Divine Essence.

In a similar way, the father and mother love each other so much that their love also personifies as the child, and each of them are equal.

 

[PluniaZ]

Yes. Just as the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Love between the Father and the Son, so too does the child proceed from the love between the mother and father.

The love that the Father and Son have for one another is so strong and so deep that it is actually personified from eternity as the Holy Spirit. All three being co-equal, co-eternal, one supreme Divine Essence.

In a similar way, the father and mother love each other so much that their love also personifies as the child, and each of them are equal.

Another way to think of it is that the human mother corresponds to the Holy Spirit, Whom Thomas Aquinas identifies with Love. Among humans, the woman seems to be the focal point of love:

1. Husbands love their wives;
2. Mothers love their sons;
3. Sons love their mothers.

 

[Fiasco]

Another way to think of it is that the human mother corresponds to the Holy Spirit, Whom Thomas Aquinas identifies with Love. Among humans, the woman seems to be the focal point of love:

1. Husbands love their wives;
2. Mothers love their sons;
3. Sons love their mothers.

Thanks be to God the woman IS the focal point of love as she deserves to be: the HEART of the family! Love is the glue which sustains the family.

The human family is a reflection of the Trinity, but we can go too far with our matching. We have to make allowance for the differences between God’s eternal Divine Nature and our created human nature, severely restricted by time and space.

The Holy Spirit is the total Self-giving Love between Father and Son, breathed or spirated in eternity, no time involved due to God’s Nature.
A child is the result of the total self-giving love between husband and wife, with time delays due to our nature.
The child is the reflection of the Holy Spirit. The mother isn’t. If that’s false, i hope someone here says so. Apology in advance in that case.
The excuse will be that “We learn by our mistakes.” which thankfully we know is true.

The Father is the Generating Principle in the Godhead, generating the Son: His Self-Knowledge, in eternity.
A human father is the generating principle in the marriage/family.
Father, Son, Holy Spirit
Father, mother, children. Looks odd but…again, being mindful of differences between the two natures…and gender.

Eve is drawn from Adam’s side.
Remember Paul Stookey’s Wedding Song? (also sung by Petula Clark)
“Woman draws her life from man and gives it back again.” Great song.
That reminds me of the Father’s generating of the Son, and the Son’s returning of the giving, resulting in the Holy Spirit.

Long-winded and Scrappy!
Never tried this before, and can’t dredge up the proper words.
It’s something i could express verbally much more coherently.

 

[PluniaZ]

Thanks be to God the woman IS the focal point of love as she deserves to be: the HEART of the family! Love is the glue which sustains the family.

The human family is a reflection of the Trinity, but we can go too far with our matching. We have to make allowance for the differences between God’s eternal Divine Nature and our created human nature, severely restricted by time and space.

The Holy Spirit is the total Self-giving Love between Father and Son, breathed or spirated in eternity, no time involved due to God’s Nature.
A child is the result of the total self-giving love between husband and wife, with time delays due to our nature.
The child is the reflection of the Holy Spirit. The mother isn’t. If that’s false, i hope someone here says so. Apology in advance in that case.
The excuse will be that “We learn by our mistakes.” which thankfully we know is true.

The Father is the Generating Principle in the Godhead, generating the Son: His Self-Knowledge, in eternity.
A human father is the generating principle in the marriage/family.
Father, Son, Holy Spirit
Father, mother, children. Looks odd but…again, being mindful of differences between the two natures…and gender.

Eve is drawn from Adam’s side.
Remember Paul Stookey’s Wedding Song? (also sung by Petula Clark)
“Woman draws her life from man and gives it back again.” Great song.
That reminds me of the Father’s generating of the Son, and the Son’s returning of the giving, resulting in the Holy Spirit.

Long-winded and Scrappy!
Never tried this before, and can’t dredge up the proper words.
It’s something i could express verbally much more coherently.

I think we’re all just speaking by analogy here and not trying to assert any doctrine, the general point being that the human family is a reflection of the Most Holy Trinity. As to which person corresponds to whom, I don’t think we should make any dogmatic claims, since the Church, as far as I know, has not defined this.

But it would be odd if the Bible gave us the words “Father” and “Son” and didn’t intend for them to correspond to the human father and son.

Given that the Holy Spirit is named “Love” by Thomas Aquinas, it would be odd if the Holy Spirit did not also correspond to the human personification of love - our mothers. This is is a good read for how the Blessed Virgin Mary is closely related with the Holy Spirit: catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=4270

Saint Thomas Aquinas does use the child analogy for the procession of the Holy Spirit at one point, but he says it is “inept”:

So also did Abel proceed immediately from Adam, inasmuch as Adam was his father; and mediately, as Eve was his mother, who proceeded from Adam; although, indeed, this example of a material procession is inept to signify the immaterial procession of the divine persons.

newadvent.org/summa/1036.htm#article3

Saint John of Damascus, on the other hand, associates Eve with the Holy Spirit:

We have an analogy in Adam, who was not begotten (for God Himself moulded him), and Seth, who was begotten (for he is Adam’s son), and Eve, who proceeded out of Adam’s rib (for she was not begotten).

orthodox.net/fathers/exacti.html#BOOK_I_CHAPTER_I

 

[Fiasco]

Yes. Just as the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Love between the Father and the Son, so too does the child proceed from the love between the mother and father.

The love that the Father and Son have for one another is so strong and so deep that it is actually personified from eternity as the Holy Spirit. All three being co-equal, co-eternal, one supreme Divine Essence.
**
In a similar way, the father and mother love each other so much that their love also personifies as the child, and each of them are equal.**

I think we’re all just speaking by analogy here and not trying to assert any doctrine, the general point being that the human family is a reflection of the Most Holy Trinity. As to which person corresponds to whom, I don’t think we should make any dogmatic claims, since the Church, as far as I know, has not defined this.

We’ll have to agree to disagree.

Regarding “As to which person corresponds to whom…”, the human father has to correspond to the Father, and setting aside the sex (ie gender) aspect, the mother has to correspond to the Son.
The Love between Father and Son breathes or spirates the HolySpirit.
The love between father and mother brings forth children.

Father + Son = Holy Spirit.
Father + mother = children, and that’s the only “analogy” that makes sense.

omgriley’s post above and my own earlier post have to be the right ones.

But it would be odd if the Bible gave us the words “Father” and “Son” and didn’t intend for them to correspond to the human father and son.

The Son is the Image of the Father, but we can’t go farther in that direction.

An analogy of this is the truth that the Church is the Mystical Body of Christ and the Bride of Christ at the same time. At first glance, that sounds crazy.

Given that the Holy Spirit is named “Love” by Thomas Aquinas, it would be odd if the Holy Spirit did not also correspond to the human personification of love - our mothers.

Metaphorically, our mothers are the Heart of the family, but they’re not “the human personification of love”. That’s going too far.
Children are the personification of love: the love between father and mother.
i wasn’t keen on some of what you put in your Post #8 (and even earlier ones) but made only hints. They weren’t enough.

This is is a good read for how the Blessed Virgin Mary is closely related with the Holy Spirit: catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?renum=4270

That’s a great article…and i downloaded it, but it doesn’t imply similarity between the Holy Spirit and Our Lady. The Holy Spirit’s relationship is sanctifying and Spousal.

Saint Thomas Aquinas does use the child analogy for the procession of the Holy Spirit at one point, but he says it is “inept”:

If Saint Thomas says it’s inept, then anything else is MORE inept. The child is left dangling. Seven hundred years have passed, so the Church’s knowledge and wisdom have increased since then. But i find it difficult to believe that St Thomas used “inept” in the way implied.

Saint John of Damascus, on the other hand, associates Eve with the Holy Spirit:

Can’t go for that either.

 

[PluniaZ]

We’ll have to agree to disagree.

Regarding “As to which person corresponds to whom…”, the human father has to correspond to the Father, and setting aside the sex (ie gender) aspect, the mother has to correspond to the Son.
The Love between Father and Son breathes or spirates the HolySpirit.
The love between father and mother brings forth children.

Father + Son = Holy Spirit.
Father + mother = children, and that’s the only “analogy” that makes sense.

omgriley’s post above and my own earlier post have to be the right ones.

The Son is the Image of the Father, but we can’t go farther in that direction.

An analogy of this is the truth that the Church is the Mystical Body of Christ and the Bride of Christ at the same time. At first glance, that sounds crazy.

Metaphorically, our mothers are the Heart of the family, but they’re not “the human personification of love”. That’s going too far.
Children are the personification of love: the love between father and mother.
i wasn’t keen on some of what you put in your Post #8 (and even earlier ones) but made only hints. They weren’t enough.

That’s a great article…and i downloaded it, but it doesn’t imply similarity between the Holy Spirit and Our Lady. The Holy Spirit’s relationship is sanctifying and Spousal.

If Saint Thomas says it’s inept, then anything else is MORE inept. The child is left dangling. Seven hundred years have passed, so the Church’s knowledge and wisdom have increased since then. But i find it difficult to believe that St Thomas used “inept” in the way implied.

Can’t go for that either.

Well, I don’t think the Church has dogmatically defined any of this, so best not to discuss any further.