Input on "The Churches of Revelation"

[JRRTFAN]

I’d like some (name removed by moderator)ut on this subject. I have had 2, essentially Fundamental/Evangelical, Christians tell me, in the last 2 months, that the so called Churches of Revelation no longer exist and that is proof positive that churches are “not meant to last forever”.

My response has been that a) there are not 7 Churches there is one Church in 7 locations, vis the Church AT Smyrna not the Church OF Smyrna, etc. b) the 7 cities mentioned in Revelation no longer exist with those names therefore, obviously, any mention of the Church at a place that no longer exists would be impossible.

I have pointed out, however, that the Church (singular) has constantly maintained some presence, perhaps only nominally, in those geographic regions. In fact a Turkish Muslim recently murdered Bishop Luigi Padovese of Anatolia in Turkey.

The problem with my theory, to their mind, is that there was no Catholic Church at the time of Revelation, which is another battle entirely, but checking Catholichierarchy.com I find that these Turkish sees were created long after Revelation (which intellectually shoots me in the foot).

Gimme some help here.

 

[ConstantineTG]

So you are looking for the Churches mentioned in Revelations?

 

[JRRTFAN]

So you are looking for the Churches mentioned in Revelations?

Not exactly, I’m looking to support the fact that the Church never ceased in those locales even though the cities are gone. The apostolic see in Turkey has been operational since Pauls time under a continuous line of Bishops from the apostles til now.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Not exactly, I’m looking to support the fact that the Church never ceased in those locales even though the cities are gone. The apostolic see in Turkey has been operational since Pauls time under a continuous line of Bishops from the apostles til now.

Right. But the lineage of the Apostles is not dependent on territory. Even if Islam were to completely takeover the Middle East and Europe and Christianity wiped out there, the Church remains so long as there’s a validly concecrated Bishop on earth.

The problem here is the people you are discussing with see the Church as physical buildings built on land. Christ’s Church is build on Peter. I don’t recall Christ putting a building on top of Peter.

 

[JRRTFAN]

Right. But the lineage of the Apostles is not dependent on territory. Even if Islam were to completely takeover the Middle East and Europe and Christianity wiped out there, the Church remains so long as there’s a validly concecrated Bishop on earth.

The problem here is the people you are discussing with see the Church as physical buildings built on land. Christ’s Church is build on Peter. I don’t recall Christ putting a building on top of Peter.

You know, when I think about it, you have answered brilliantly. I would have never taken the concept to that conclusion, but it is absolutel correct and I think I may be jousting at windmills with them, in fact, I know I am. Thanks.

 

[Barbkw]

The seven Churches quoted in Revelation were the original parishes established and sheparded by the Apostles and their Bishops.

These ancient cities were Greek, then Roman, then Christian, and now Muslim.

The ancient Church at Smyrna, is now in the city of Izmir, Turkey. The ancient city of Ephesus, (St. Paul’s Letter to the Ephesians) is about 90 minutes from Izmir.

It’s believed that St. John took the BVM with him to Ephesus.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smyrna

Photo of the ancient city of Smyrna.

Photos of ancient Ephesus: google.com/images?q=ephesus+turkey&rlz=1I7ADBR_en&oe=UTF-8&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=nM9ZTdOMCMGAlAe5qaXZDA&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=2&ved=0CD4QsAQwAQ&biw=781&bih=400

 

[Hesychios]

I’d like some (name removed by moderator)ut on this subject. I have had 2, essentially Fundamental/Evangelical, Christians tell me, in the last 2 months, that the so called Churches of Revelation no longer exist and that is proof positive that churches are “not meant to last forever”.

My response has been that a) there are not 7 Churches there is one Church in 7 locations, vis the Church AT Smyrna not the Church OF Smyrna, etc. b) the 7 cities mentioned in Revelation no longer exist with those names therefore, obviously, any mention of the Church at a place that no longer exists would be impossible.

I have pointed out, however, that the Church (singular) has constantly maintained some presence, perhaps only nominally, in those geographic regions. In fact a Turkish Muslim recently murdered Bishop Luigi Padovese of Anatolia in Turkey.

The problem with my theory, to their mind, is that there was no Catholic Church at the time of Revelation, which is another battle entirely, but checking Catholichierarchy.com I find that these Turkish sees were created long after Revelation (which intellectually shoots me in the foot).

Gimme some help here.

They were Greek Orthodox dioceses until the Greco-Turkish war in about 1921.The flock is just too small now, most of the Christians have miigrated to Greece and the Americas.

There are onlty about 8000 Orthodox Christians in Turkey left, but oddly enough that is probably a lot more people than populated those combined churches in St Paul and St John’s day. That would equate to over 1000 people per each of the seven, but I think the greater portion of these persons live in Istanbul.

 

[Nine_Two]

Not exactly, I’m looking to support the fact that the Church never ceased in those locales even though the cities are gone. The apostolic see in Turkey has been operational since Pauls time under a continuous line of Bishops from the apostles til now.

Depends what you mean by “Those locals”. The Churches of Philadelphia and Smyrna were active until the Turks expelled the Greeks 90 years ago, however Christians have since been expelled. In the other five cities Christians have been gone for even longer.