Instruments to be used at mass

[27lw]

snip - (which, IMO, is probably chant–sorry, traditional-leaning Catholics!) - snip

Cat, thanks for your posts. You have obviously thought about this a lot, and have a lot of interesting opinions. I wonder, though, about the quote above - - - you don’t like ANY chant? Even monks chanting really well on CD? Have you seen the DVD “Into Great Silence”? What do you think about the Church’s comments in GIRM that Gregorian chant has pride of place - - what do you interpret that to mean? I am not meaning to sound sarcastic, I just genuinely wonder how people dismiss chant completely…

 

[Cat]

snip - (which, IMO, is probably chant–sorry, traditional-leaning Catholics!) - snip

Cat, thanks for your posts. You have obviously thought about this a lot, and have a lot of interesting opinions. I wonder, though, about the quote above - - - you don’t like ANY chant? Even monks chanting really well on CD? Have you seen the DVD “Into Great Silence”? What do you think about the Church’s comments in GIRM that Gregorian chant has pride of place - - what do you interpret that to mean? I am not meaning to sound sarcastic, I just genuinely wonder how people dismiss chant completely…

I have heard chant on CDs, in movies, and in churches. I haven’t seen the DVD “Into Great Silence.”

I think that the Church’s comments in the GIRM that Gregorian chant has “pride of place” should be respected and honored…

…but along with lots of other Catholics, I really don’t know what is meant by “pride of place.”

Does this mean that Gregorian chant is the only music allowed in the Mass? Some people on CAF think so. I don’t think this is what is meant, because there are other statements in the GIRM that make it clear that other styles of music are allowed in the Mass

So since other styles of music are allowed in the Mass, then what percentage of the Mass should be done with Gregorian chant and what percentage should be done with other styles?

As I said above, there are not too many “regular” parishes (those not in the big cities and not in university towns) that regularly use Gregorian chant in the Mass. Does this mean that these parishes are disrespecting the GIRM and the Catholic Church? I don’t think so, because if no one is able to actually DO Gregorian chant, then how can a parish comply?

I don’t dismiss chant at all. I just think that it isn’t likely that Gregorian chant will start happening in Masses all over the United States because of the lack of ability of the vast majority of Americans to sing anything, let alone Gregorian chant. (Music education in the United States is abysmal at best.) Although some people on CAF insist that Gregorian chant is “easy,” I don’t agree at all, and believe that badly-done Gregorian chant is worse than the loudest, most out-of-tune electric guitar.

27lw, I like a huge variety of music. I enjoy everything from Cajun/Zydeco to Baroque. I like almost all instruments, including the human voice. But there are a few kinds/styles of music that I really don’t care for, and any kind of chant is one of those.

But my personal preference or opinion doesn’t matter when it comes to the GIRM. IF today, the Catholic Church called for the ousting of ALL musical styles in the Mass except Gregorian chant, I would comply. It is a minuscule sacrifice for any of us to make in comparison to the Sacrifice of Our Lord on the cross for our salvation.

 

[Edmundus1581]

**I have yet to get used to this Catholic thing of not singing. My parish is heavily Hispanic and they mostly sing. However, I have been places where I was one of the minority singing, to say nothing of actually singing, if you know what I mean.

I once heard someone say that since Protestants do not have the Eucharist, their adoration of God must take a different path for that reason alone. I can see where this might be true. There is an emotional content to most Protestant praise music. Personally, even back then, I preferred the intellectual content of the great old hymns.

This is just a theory of mine, but I suspect it (not singing, that is) is an Irish thing. The Catholic Church in Australia is mostly of Irish origin, and from them we’ve received a rugged, manly version of Catholicism, which favours sport and “good times” (eg. BBQ’s) over artistic and intellectual pursuits. This was very apparent to me when I converted from Anglicanism and came with a great interest in theology and music. I very quickly learned that this was a big turn off to most Catholics, including priests and religious, and that the “correct” after-Mass conversation is about Saturday’s football results.

The decline of our culture outside the Church in the last thirty years into banal music and hedonism has meant that most of our youth have zero interest in the great traditional hymns.

It’s interesting the your Hispanic parish mostly sings. I’d be very curious to hear from other nationalities about this. What happens in Europe? Africa? India?

 

[Edmundus1581]

Regarding the main topic, ie. instruments, and, specifically the use of instruments other than the organ,…

I have a PsalmsRespond and Acclaim. (These are a very musically satisfying setting of the psalms, in a loosely plainsong style.) In this CD, which is intended to guide parish musicians, many of the psalms are accompanied by both classical guitar and piano, and are quite beautiful. The playing is fairly simple, and, I suspect, within the range of a moderately accomplished player. I suspect that in choosing these instruments the performers are recognizing the reality of parish musicianship, and making the most of it.

 

[liturgyluver]

Cat, you have made some excellent observations in this thread. With regard to your question about Gregorian Chant it is important to remember that the “pride of place” instruction comes with important qualifiers.

The first is that it is only to be have that positom when “all things are equal”. As we often know, all things are often not equal, and so the other requirements that the music selected should enable the participation of the assembly, that it should be appropriate to the liturgical action of the day or point in the liturgy, and that pastoral judgement is made all need to be taken into account. For example, some of the plainchant Glorias are particularly joyless: if used are we really uniting the assembly in a hymn of praise to God as the Church norms require? Similarly, there is no point using it if the assembly struggle to sing it (this varies - some can, others can’t so again a judgement must be made.)

Additionally I would also point out that Musicum Sacram in 1967 went further and said that this pride of place was only required in “sung celebrations in Latin” (para 50) which no doubt has influenced our Bishops in the musical norms that exist locally. Hope this is helpful.

 

[Cavaille-Coll]

Cat, I completely agree with what your organ teacher taught you, and I thank you for sharing it. The difficulty arises in that most contemporary hymns are not arranged for organ. OCP, for example, dropped their “organ accompaniment” book in favor of a “keyboard” version in the late 90’s, which is written for piano. Because of this, the bass (pedal) notes are written lower than an organist would play, and often involve progressions that are meant for the left hand and not the feet. In fact, their arrangements of the few traditional hymns they still print are often so bland and boring that improvisation with the score is necessary. It is almost as if they want those hymns to sound boring so that people will opt for their contemporary selections.

The organ is by far the best instrument to lead singing, not just accompany it, but if what is being played is theologically errant or musicologically unfit for the organ, people will continue to remain silent.

 

[Cat]

Cat, I completely agree with what your organ teacher taught you, and I thank you for sharing it. The difficulty arises in that most contemporary hymns are not arranged for organ. OCP, for example, dropped their “organ accompaniment” book in favor of a “keyboard” version in the late 90’s, which is written for piano. Because of this, the bass (pedal) notes are written lower than an organist would play, and often involve progressions that are meant for the left hand and not the feet. In fact, their arrangements of the few traditional hymns they still print are often so bland and boring that improvisation with the score is necessary. It is almost as if they want those hymns to sound boring so that people will opt for their contemporary selections.

The organ is by far the best instrument to lead singing, not just accompany it, but if what is being played is theologically errant or musicologically unfit for the organ, people will continue to remain silent.

Two comments.

1. I’m not sure what you mean when you say that the hymns are not arranged for the organ. I’ve been having lessons for two years now, and we do not use any hymn arrangements written for the organ. I’ve never seen such a thing. I grew up with a piano teacher who was an organist at a Lutheran church, and she used the same hymnal that the pianists use–nothing special written for the organ.

It is up to the organist to figure out how to use the pedals for each hymn, and there are ways to play pedals without making the “leaps.” The good organists automatically “re-write” the pedals if they are too “left-handy,” and they use notes in the chord, and assign each note a “heel” or a “toe” on the appropriate foot. They don’t even have to think about it–it’s done automatically because they have a lot of experience.

My teacher has taught me how to read the Soprano and Alto in the right hand, the Tenor in the left hand, and the Bass in the pedals, and he has taught me to “write different pedal parts” if the Bass notes are too “leapy.” This took a long time for me to learn, and I still struggle with it, but for the most part, I can sit down and read a hymn on the organ, and get most of it. (I am an amazing sight-reader on the piano–it’s my greatest skill and I am known in my city for this skill.)

I have seen a book (written by a Catholic organist!) of hymns arranged for the PIANIST who is learning to play organ! This is a wonderful book, because the Soprano and Alto are written in the right hand, the Tenor in the left hand, and the Bass is on a separate staff below the other staffs–this is heaven to read for pianists! BUT…my teacher won’t allow me to have this book! Someday, SOMEDAY–I’ll get a copy and hide it from him!! Bwoo ha ha! (You can tell that I make life lively for my organ teacher!)

1. I have attended a workshop on how “contemporary hymns” can be played effectively on the organ. It’s possible, but it takes some skill and experience. The gentleman that conducted our workshop is the organist for a church that routinely does liturgical worship, not contemporary, but he was very very good at the contemporary adaptations for the organ.

But that being said, frankly, I believe that the “contemporary hymns” should be played on the piano and/or guitar, not on the organ. This is what our parish music director does–he plays the traditional hymns and Mass parts on the organ, and the contemporary hymns on the piano. Sounds wonderful, and much easier to sing with.

BTW, I assume when you say “contemporary hymns,” you are referring to the body of hymns written within the last 40 years. Protestants (and I) call this “boomer music,” not “contemporary.” “Contemporary” is anything written within the last year, not stuff that was written when we were all children and teenagers.

 

[pnewton]

I came up with a pro-guitar argument this weekend, albeit a limited one. Those that know me know we have few that want to sing in choir. I have been pushing to get kids in because they at least are willing. This Sunday, I had five kids show up, all of which could sing and sing well. With the guitar, I was able to turn and face them, sing to them, helping them to sing stronger and on pitch, thereby allowing their voices to lead the singing instead of me or a guitar. It was effective, though the thought crossed my mind I was taking away the guitar as the primary instrument leading the singing in lieu of the children’s voices, as well as my own, as I…ahem… are you ready?

…I was just singing to the choir.

 

[RCTechGeek]

Does anyone know if the ban on the use of saxophone at Mass by Pope Pius X was ever lifted or not?

 

[Elizium23]

Does anyone know if the ban on the use of saxophone at Mass by Pope Pius X was ever lifted or not?

I think the standard argument is that current liturgical legislation permits “any suitable, approved instrument”, and these documents have supplanted and abrogated the old documents which tended to provide a list of banned instruments. But all the current documents still stress that organ should enjoy pride of place.