Intelligent people?

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rpp said:
The only problems that I have encountered when trying to understand Catholic teaching is when I try to incorporate things by Hans Kung or Gregory Baum. Their stuff, and similar modern trends, make no sense and create all sorts of logical problems.
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I have found that it is best to steer clear of the Küngs and Baums of the Church, those cobwebbed renegade artifacts of “the spirit of Vatican II.” They are basically heretical and deranged in their theology, aiming at liberalism and secularization, or as they would say, “getting with the times.” They are simply not voices of genuine Catholicism.

On the other hand, they can be attractive (and, in a twisted way, useful) to atheists and agnostics on their journey toward the faith. Sometimes people, particlarly secular liberals, need to feel out a watered-down Catholicism for a time before they are prepared to handle and embrace the real deal. I know I did. (I still own Küng’s On Being a Christian and Baum’s Man Becoming. Occasionally I try to give them another chance, but I always have to put them down after a few pages lest I vomit.)
 
Namesake said:
I have read that book several times. I bought it when it was first available. Buckley was a cradle Catholic and that book didn’t shed much light on why he remained Catholic.

I find some of the Catholic stuff kind of hocus pocus. Like saying a certain set of words to free souls from purgatory, or novenas. I think that sort of stuff is peripheral in the Catholic Church so it probably isn’t fair to ask how intelligent people go along with that because they probably don’t. That’s my guess anyway. I cant’ imagine W. F. Buckley saying a set number of a prescription prayers in the belief that souls would be set free from purgatory if he did that.
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Of course the prayer itself doesn’t set someone free…God does. Prayers are an appeal to God or a request for help from the Communion of Saints to make an appeal on your behalf. What a strange thing to have a problem with…what does it have to do with intelligence?
 
I think there are some studies on the correlation of the g factor and religiousity. Anyone want to find them for me?
 
rlg94086 said:
Of course the prayer itself doesn’t set someone free…God does. Prayers are an appeal to God or a request for help from the Communion of Saints to make an appeal on your behalf. What a strange thing to have a problem with…what does it have to do with intelligence?
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It doesn’t seem at all strange to me that one could question the need to petition an all knowing, and all loving God to release souls from purgatory. If we don’t pray for the release of souls from purgatory will God just keep them there? If we pray for them will they be released early as if on parole?

Why not pray for souls to never again have to go to purgatory? If 1000 souls can be released because of a certain number of prayers then why not figure out a better prayer and prevent time in purgatory? Problem solved, no?

Can’t you just picture God doing something else and getting a message in the form of a prayer and deciding to release some poor soul. Which souls does He choose? Take a number? Is it like choosing sides for a pick up baseball game? It would make a Saturday Night Live skit.

Seriously, I think it’s a bit of a stretch to believe things like that. That’s why I wonder how intelligent people can go along with those things. It seems so magical.

Why does God need prompting? I thought He was omniscient and omnipotent. What is the need for anything?

I can’t imagine intelligent people believing in that sort of thing.
 
Namesake

Do you consider yourself someone of superior intelectual abilities?
 
Namesake said:
It doesn’t seem at all strange to me that one could question the need to petition an all knowing, and all loving God to release souls from purgatory. If we don’t pray for the release of souls from purgatory will God just keep them there? If we pray for them will they be released early as if on parole?

Why not pray for souls to never again have to go to purgatory? If 1000 souls can be released because of a certain number of prayers then why not figure out a better prayer and prevent time in purgatory? Problem solved, no?

Can’t you just picture God doing something else and getting a message in the form of a prayer and deciding to release some poor soul. Which souls does He choose? Take a number? It would make a Saturday Night Live skit.

Seriously, I think it’s a bit of a stretch to believe things like that. That’s why I wonder how intelligent people can go along with those things. It seems so magical.

Why does God need prompting? I thought He was omniscient and omnipotent. What is the need for anything?

I can’t imagine intelligent people believing in that sort of thing.
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Perhaps you could if you had more intelligence. 😉
 
IvanKaramozov said:
Namesake

Do you consider yourself someone of superior intelectual abilities?
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The question is irrelevant. How 'bout you? Do you consider me or you to be of superior “intelectual”(sic) abilities?

How 'bout W. F. Buckley?
 
Namesake said:
Cute. Is that a typical Catholic sort of reply? I mean, charitable and all? That’s one of the biggest turn offs here. Personal attacks.
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That is a typical human reply - trying to inject some humor/teasing into a conversation. Sorry if you don’t get it. I can’t help you with that.
 
Namesake said:
The question is irrelevant.
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Actually it is totally relivent, if you are not of superior inteligence then how do you know they have reasone to beleive Catholicism is false, if you are of such inteligence then you must have specific instances to cite.
How 'bout you? Do you consider me or you to be of superior “intelectual”(sic) abilities?
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no
How 'bout W. F. Buckley?
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sure
 
Sometimes it is just about faith and being humble to trusting in the Church and its teachings. I am a very highly intelligent individual and sometimes to the point where it becomes an issue of pride or arrogance since academics just comes easy to me and since I spend more than 40 hours a week studying law as I am very dedicated, few people can catch me which is why I am in the top of the class. Currently I am sick with a cold and burnt out on law and am taking some time off but I’ll pull a couple 12 hour days for the Easter break to catch up. Anyways, undergrad was a joke in comparrison since I never even had to study for that. However, as mentioned, I think there is some humility involved with having faith and submitting to the church’s teachings as there are a lot of things I can think way too deeply into to the point of no longer having faith but I’m content just having faith in the Curch’s teachings and educating myself about them as well.
 
wjp984 said:
Sometimes it is just about faith and being humble to trusting in the Church and its teachings. I am a very highly intelligent individual and sometimes to the point where it becomes an issue of pride or arrogance since academics just comes easy to me and since I spend more than 40 hours a week studying law as I am very dedicated, few people can catch me which is why I am in the top of the class. Currently I am sick with a cold and burnt out on law and am taking some time off but I’ll pull a couple 12 hour days for the Easter break to catch up. Anyways, undergrad was a joke in comparrison since I never even had to study for that. However, as mentioned, I think there is some humility involved with having faith and submitting to the church’s teachings as there are a lot of things I can think way too deeply into to the point of no longer having faith but I’m content just having faith in the Curch’s teachings and educating myself about them as well.
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Very well said wjp984. As a fan of St. Benedict, I would have to agree with a call for humility! While humility is one of my biggest stumbling blocks, I can say that the most important thing I did was making the decision to be obedient to the Church. It doesn’t mean you “check your brain at the door.” Rather, it is a recognition that you don’t know everything. As others have said, some of the greatest philosophers have been Catholic - St. Thomas Aquinas anyone? The feeling that an intelligent person would not believe in the teaching of the Church, or in the existence of God for that matter, is an exercise in pride and arrogance.
 
Namesake said:
Cute. Is that a typical Catholic sort of reply? I mean, charitable and all? That’s one of the biggest turn offs here. Personal attacks.
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Namesake,
Please don’t be offended. I’m sure the intent was to be humorous. PAX.
We don’t know if you are superior, or it we are or, for that matter if W.F B. is. That sort of thing is rather subjective isn’t it?

Do you think of G.K. Chesterton as being intelligent?.
I’m reading his book called “Orthodoxy” and I believe it comes as close to answering your question as anything. He is speaking in an early Chapter of Sanity, and intellignece, and the various philosophical ideas of the day and said this of the “practical” mystic. (he contends that all “ordinary men are mystics”)
Mysticism keeps men sane. As long as you have mystery you have health; when you destroy mystery you create morbidity. The ordinary man has always been sane because the ordinary man has always been a mystic. He has permitted twilight. He has always had one foot in the earth and one foot in fairyland. He has always left himself free to doubt his gods; but (unlike the agnostic of to-day) free also to believe in them. He always cared more for truth than consistancy. If he saw two truths that seemed to contradict each other, he would take the the two truths and the contradiction along with them. …
The morbid logician seeks to make everything lucid and succeeds in making everything mysterious. The mystic allows one thing to be mysterious, and everything else becomes lucid…
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I would recommend this book to you. It isn’t the easiest to read, but if you like Buckley, I’m sure you’ll like Chesterton.👍

Peace
James
 
Namesake said:
Please don’t anyone take this wrong because I really don’t mean it in a bad way at all.

I have been struggling for quite some time now with an issue about the Catholic Church.

From my perspective there are several areas of Catholic teachings that are very difficult to accept. Those issues for the most part involve reason versus faith, or maybe what would be better described as reason versus submission.

The question that has been bothering me is how can people of above average intelligence with lots of formal education continue to accept the teachings of the Catholic Church?

One of my all time heroes was W. F. Buckley. He was hugely intelligent and very well educated but he remained Catholic his whole life.

How do people like Buckley remain Catholic and still maintain their enormous intellectual curiosity?

My guess is that I am not sufficiently bright to pose the question appropriately. However, there remains the concept. How does one stay Catholic with superior intellectual abilities?
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What several areas? Let me guess - one of them is the creation vs evolution. Well, I believe in both, God created the world and there was evolution. You can’t explain the creation of the world from Genesis literally. That’s what some protestant fanatics do. The meaning of this story is: God created man in his image and likeness and God loves us. That’s it.
I’m afraid you believe in lies spread by atheists or protestants who try to convince others that if you are Catholic you can’t be intelligent. They fight against something they don’t understand and don’t want to understand. For example the miracle of Fatima. There was a miracle and if somebody denies that, is either an idiot or a liar.
I recommedn this:
Fides et Ratio (Latin: faith and reason) is an encyclical promulgated by Pope John Paul II on 14 September 1998. It deals primarily with the relationship between faith and reason.
 
Namesake said:
I cant’ imagine W. F. Buckley saying a set number of a prescription prayers in the belief that souls would be set free from purgatory if he did that.
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Don’t underestimate the power of words and prayer. Words are powerful. God spoke words and created the world. We can cast away evil spirits by saying words (“in the name of Jesus…”) or pray for healing (“be healed in Jesus name” - I’ve seen many healings myself). It’s exactly the same with praying for souls who are in purgatory. We should pray for them so they could enter heaven. God bless.
 
Cajetan said:
I have found that it is best to steer clear of the Küngs and Baums of the Church, those cobwebbed renegade artifacts of “the spirit of Vatican II.” They are basically heretical and deranged in their theology, aiming at liberalism and secularization, or as they would say, “getting with the times.” They are simply not voices of genuine Catholicism.

On the other hand, they can be attractive (and, in a twisted way, useful) to atheists and agnostics on their journey toward the faith. Sometimes people, particlarly secular liberals, need to feel out a watered-down Catholicism for a time before they are prepared to handle and embrace the real deal. I know I did. (I still own Küng’s On Being a Christian and Baum’s Man Becoming. Occasionally I try to give them another chance, but I always have to put them down after a few pages lest I vomit.)
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Thank you. I had come to the same conclusion long ago.

Theological innovation = Heresy.

Theological advancement = Good area of study.
 
Namesake said:
It doesn’t seem at all strange to me that one could question the need to petition an all knowing, and all loving God to release souls from purgatory. If we don’t pray for the release of souls from purgatory will God just keep them there? If we pray for them will they be released early as if on parole?

Why not pray for souls to never again have to go to purgatory? If 1000 souls can be released because of a certain number of prayers then why not figure out a better prayer and prevent time in purgatory? Problem solved, no?

Can’t you just picture God doing something else and getting a message in the form of a prayer and deciding to release some poor soul. Which souls does He choose? Take a number? Is it like choosing sides for a pick up baseball game? It would make a Saturday Night Live skit.

Seriously, I think it’s a bit of a stretch to believe things like that. That’s why I wonder how intelligent people can go along with those things. It seems so magical.

Why does God need prompting? I thought He was omniscient and omnipotent. What is the need for anything?

I can’t imagine intelligent people believing in that sort of thing.
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Just step back a bit and try thinking about it a different way. Using your example, suppose you’re “in” purgagory (that is, undergoing purgatory). The goal, which is guaranteed by God, is that you be separated from all residual imperfection.

Now, suppose God allows you to be aware of all these people praying for you. Will this not affect you? Will the very fact of their prayers not move you to greater perfection and love of God and his creatures? Since anybody “in” purgatory is already “pointed in the right direction”, then the answer must be YES, don’t you think?
 
Namesake said:
I have read that book several times. I bought it when it was first available. Buckley was a cradle Catholic and that book didn’t shed much light on why he remained Catholic.

I find some of the Catholic stuff kind of hocus pocus. Like saying a certain set of words to free souls from purgatory, or novenas. I think that sort of stuff is peripheral in the Catholic Church so it probably isn’t fair to ask how intelligent people go along with that because they probably don’t. That’s my guess anyway. I cant’ imagine W. F. Buckley saying a set number of a prescription prayers in the belief that souls would be set free from purgatory if he did that.
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The things that you mention are not dogmas of our faith. Perhaps you should do some additional reading in areas that will do you more good than a biography of a non-theologian. I studied myself into the Catholic faith as an adult with a doctorate. I read dozens of books while on that journey. I continue to study the faith because there is a vast repository of knowledge gathered over the centuries that it would be impossible for any single person to completely plumb in one lifetime.

I suggest reading some of the writings of the “doctors” of the church and writings of apologetics who go through the teachings point by point with discussions of common objections. Scott Hahn is a former Protestant Bible scholar who studied his way into the Catholic faith. There are others who were not any type of Christian when they began their quest which ended in the Catholic Church.

You can start with the Catholic Answers website for documented resources instead of this more general discussion on the forums with anonymous individuals whose credentials you cannot vet. This would appear to me to be the more “intelligent” course of action for someone who wants to rely on reason more than feelings.
 
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