Intercession of Pope John Paul

[grew333]

I have been wondering — when Sister Marie prayed to Pope John Paul for a cure, how did John Paul know she was praying to him?

Can John Paul read everyone’s mind at all times so he would know if I prayed to him, right now, for example? And if he can, can all of the people in heaven read everyone’s mind all the time? Is every person in heaven reading the minds of all 7 billion people on earth all of the time?

If not, then how did John Paul know Sister was praying to him? I don’t understand how this works.

 

[Corki]

Saints don’t read our minds. Saints hear our prayers through a special grace given by God.

 

[grew333]

Well, you know, that thought occurred to me — that God would let the saint know when there is a prayer being addressed to him or her. But that created a problem for me too.

If John Paul had never “known” Sister Marie before she prayed to him (had never read her mind or anything like that) then how would John Paul know that she was a good person who deserved a cure? Just hearing one prayer would not be enough.

Isn’t the idea that Sister Marie was a good person who deserved a cure, she prayed to John Paul for help, he realized she was a good person who deserved a cure, so he interceded with God on her behalf, and God cured her? But that sort of presumes that John Paul would know that Sister is a good person in the first place. But how can he know that if he hasn’t been reading her mind or doing something like that?

 

[TheDoctor]

Well, you know, that thought occurred to me — that God would let the saint know when there is a prayer being addressed to him or her. But that created a problem for me too.

If John Paul had never “known” Sister Marie before she prayed to him (had never read her mind or anything like that) then how would John Paul know that she was a good person who deserved a cure? Just hearing one prayer would not be enough.

Isn’t the idea that Sister Marie was a good person who deserved a cure, she prayed to John Paul for help, he realized she was a good person who deserved a cure, so he interceded with God on her behalf, and God cured her? But that sort of presumes that John Paul would know that Sister is a good person in the first place. But how can he know that if he hasn’t been reading her mind or doing something like that?

We are not called to judge others, that is for God alone.

We are called to love and pray for each other. That is how you can approach the question here. God allowed JPII to know that Sister Marie was asking for prayers. JPII prayed to God on her behalf. If she was “worthy” to have her prayer answered is up to God, not JPII.

Think about it this way grew. If I sent you a PM and asked you to pray for me, would you send me a questionaire to determine if I was prayer-worthy or would you just pray for me?

 

[grew333]

Thanks. That’s a good way to think about it.

So it is up to God to decide if the sister deserves a cure. God judges. OK, got it.

But then what’s John Paul’s role in all of this? God “forwards” the prayer to John Paul, God knows about the prayer, God knows if she deserves a cure, why does God need John Paul to ask him to cure her? Surely God would not withhold a well-deserved cure based on whether or not John Paul asked God to cure her.

How to you think about that?

 

[TheDoctor]

But then what’s John Paul’s role in all of this? God “forwards” the prayer to John Paul, God knows about the prayer, God knows if she deserves a cure, why does God need John Paul to ask him to cure her? Surely God would not withhold a well-deserved cure based on whether or not John Paul asked God to cure her.

How to you think about that?

Here is great resource on praying to the Saints that will give you some background and may answer your questions:
catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp

God does not “need” any of us to pray for each other as He knows what we want and if He will grant it before we ask. Why then, do James and St. Paul and Christ tell us to pray for each other? Because we are one body in Christ - we are all interconnected through the risen Lord and our praying for others is praying for ourselves. Sometimes God uses our prayers for each other to strengthen the other person, sometimes to humble me, sometimes to make me feel thankful, sometimes to give me a kick in the backside.

Knowing that we are called to pray for each other I recall James 5:15-16: Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. **The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful. **Who are the most righteous persons? Those blessed to be in Heaven with God, the Saints. Asking then for their intercession is doing no more than what James tells us we should do.

if I may let me ask you to ponder two other points:

(1) By allowing JPII to intercede and by allowing those on Earth to know this, God allows us to know beyond doubt that JPII was a righteous man and worthy of emulation.

(2) Perhaps (and this is just speculation) JPII was in purgatory (and for what I cannot fathom) and his purgation was to ask God to alleviate the suffering of another?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Thanks. That’s a good way to think about it.

So it is up to God to decide if the sister deserves a cure. God judges. OK, got it.

But then what’s John Paul’s role in all of this? God “forwards” the prayer to John Paul, God knows about the prayer, God knows if she deserves a cure, why does God need John Paul to ask him to cure her? Surely God would not withhold a well-deserved cure based on whether or not John Paul asked God to cure her.

How to you think about that?

And what if part of the way that God chose (since He knows all) to cure this woman was because He knew that she would ask John Paul II for help through the Lord, and this was the way God both chose to effect the cure and to gain glory through that cure’s request through John Paul?

Actually, it was more that the woman prayed to God ‘through’ John Paul. HE (JP) would then not ‘forward’ the call but would ADD his prayer to the woman’s, to God.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Thanks. That’s a good way to think about it.

So it is up to God to decide if the sister deserves a cure. God judges. OK, got it.

But then what’s John Paul’s role in all of this? God “forwards” the prayer to John Paul, God knows about the prayer, God knows if she deserves a cure, why does God need John Paul to ask him to cure her? Surely God would not withhold a well-deserved cure based on whether or not John Paul asked God to cure her.

How to you think about that?

In fact, God didn’t need His Son to become Man in Christ Jesus to die on the Cross to forgive us our sins either.

God Himself chose the incarnational approach, sanctified matter and encourages us, in His Word, to pray for one another.

It is the love we show that brings us all together in Christ and God that enables us to experience God’s deifying transfiguration of ourselves and His self-communication to us.

This is all about the Communion of Saints. God revealed Himself as a communion of Three Divine Persons. If we are in His Image, then we are to become a communion of persons ourselves in the Church, here on earth and in heaven.

Alex

 

[Sheadad]

Well, you know, that thought occurred to me — that God would let the saint know when there is a prayer being addressed to him or her. But that created a problem for me too.

If John Paul had never “known” Sister Marie before she prayed to him (had never read her mind or anything like that) then how would John Paul know that she was a good person who deserved a cure? Just hearing one prayer would not be enough.

Isn’t the idea that Sister Marie was a good person who deserved a cure, she prayed to John Paul for help, he realized she was a good person who deserved a cure, so he interceded with God on her behalf, and God cured her? But that sort of presumes that John Paul would know that Sister is a good person in the first place. But how can he know that if he hasn’t been reading her mind or doing something like that?

There’s a simple answer to your questions.

The Holy Spirit; the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ, searches all and makes known our prayers to the father. Praying for the intercession of any Saint accomplishes the Devine favor of our Lord because that person has become so close in their walk with Christ while here on earth that Christ himself will intercede to the father. The Holy Spirit in it’s special way, acts as a conduit for us indirectly to the father, who will “be merciful to those he will have mercy on”. I’ll venture also to say that some Saints have very special and unequivocal favor with Christ again because of their special martyrdom status or genuine devout faith by living the words in Proverbs, “acknowledge him in all your ways”.
Understand that there is no reading of minds by a Saint, or them deciding if someone was a good person or not. It’s all revealed by the Holy Spirit, now on earth and then in his presence when “all things will be made known”.

Hope this helps.

 

[grew333]

A reply to the Doctor — you almost had me but then I got to thinking about what you were suggesting when you wrote: (1) By allowing JPII to intercede and by allowing those on Earth to know this, God allows us to know beyond doubt that JPII was a righteous man and worthy of emulation.

But what if you flip that around — if JPII is not in heaven then God does not provide the cure. Seems reasonable. If curing her is a sign that JPII is in heaven, then if JPII is not in heaven there should be no cure.

But that would put God in the difficult position of withholding a cure for a deserving nun just because JPII didn’t make it to heaven — in effect, punishing her for JPII’s sins.

And we can’t say this doesn’t happen. People probably pray to dead people all the time and don’t have their prayers answered. Now if some of those dead people are not in heaven, the situation I described above is what is happening. The prayers don’t get answered because of the sins of someone else – the person being prayed to didn’t make it to heaven.

I don’t like the implications of those ideas.

 

[CB_Catholic]

Thanks. That’s a good way to think about it.

So it is up to God to decide if the sister deserves a cure. God judges. OK, got it.

But then what’s John Paul’s role in all of this? God “forwards” the prayer to John Paul, God knows about the prayer, God knows if she deserves a cure, why does God need John Paul to ask him to cure her? Surely God would not withhold a well-deserved cure based on whether or not John Paul asked God to cure her.

How to you think about that?

God does not cure a person because they deserve it. He does it out of love and because it is His will. None of us “deserve” anything God graciously gives us, and all of us are sinners. God has His reasons for whatever He chooses to do, and we don’t see things the way God does. We cannot even begin to comprehend God’s ways. Many Saints have suffered terrible illnesses and not been healed, while sinners have been cured. It is not up to us to try to figure out why, nor is it up to us to determine who deserves anything. All judgement is reserved to God alone.

 

[grew333]

OK. Good point on the deserving thing. We don’t deserve cures, when they happen it is out of God’s free love. OK.

And God has his ways — reasons why he cures one and not the other. Yeah, that’s always a thorny point — why an all powerful all loving God doesn’t just cure everyone but just cures a few here and there. But we can’t know the mind of God so I guess we just have to say it is a mystery.

But it all feels just a little slippery to me — sorry. The Vatican says that the miracle is one of two needed to prove JPII is in heaven. Therefore the role JPII played in securing the cure has to be real and significant and probative. BUT God doesn’t need JPII to intercede, God cures out of his love and will. And we can’t understand the mind of God to know why he decides to cure one and not the other. But if we can’t know why God cures, then how is a cure a proof (as the Vatican says it is). But if the intercession of JPII is important then somehow God’s action depends on JPII’s intercession. But it doesn’t because God acts freely.

Somehow it all goes round and round and doesn’t want to quite come together for me.

 

[TheDoctor]

A reply to the Doctor — you almost had me but then I got to thinking about what you were suggesting when you wrote: (1) By allowing JPII to intercede and by allowing those on Earth to know this, God allows us to know beyond doubt that JPII was a righteous man and worthy of emulation.

But what if you flip that around — if JPII is not in heaven then God does not provide the cure. Seems reasonable. If curing her is a sign that JPII is in heaven, then if JPII is not in heaven there should be no cure.

This does not follow. God answers prayers all the time, both those where Saint intercesion is prayed for and those where it is not.

But that would put God in the difficult position of withholding a cure for a deserving nun just because JPII didn’t make it to heaven — in effect, punishing her for JPII’s sins.

God chooses what is best for us and sometimes that is to answer our prayers "yes"and sometimes “no”. Remember it is God who determines who is in Heaven or not. I really don’t follow you here.

And we can’t say this doesn’t happen. People probably pray to dead people all the time and don’t have their prayers answered.

And people pray to the physically deceased all the time and do have their prayers answered. And just to be clear, those who are in Heaven or Purgatory are alive in Christ and able to hear our prayers and pray for us.

Now if some of those dead people are not in heaven, the situation I described above is what is happening. The prayers don’t get answered because of the sins of someone else – the person being prayed to didn’t make it to heaven. I don’t like the implications of those ideas.

Keep in mind that God chooses for His own reasons which prayers to answer "yes " and we are not privy to the mechanism he uses all the time. As to the deceased, they are either in Hell, where they cannot intercede for us; or in Purgatory where they need our prayers, or in Heaven where they can. Since we don’t know whwhere anyone is, we can’t make any inference on this basis as to the granting of a prayer request except that we know God sometimes uses miracle cures to confirm to us that a person has achieved the beautific vision and we should emulate their life.

In short then, we pray for the intercession of the Saints (and all the deceased) as all righteous prayer finds favor with God. What God chooses to do in response to our prayer is His alone.

 

[grew333]

Ahhh, what concerns me is this:

The Vatican says that this miracle is proof that JPII is in heaven (one of 2 proofs needed).

Now, if JPII were not in heaven and God cured Sister Marie anyway, that would mislead us and the Church into thinking he really was in heaven.

Therefore, God could not cure her if JPII were not in heaven since to do so would be to “lie” to the Church on earth and we don’t think God would do that.

So the cure depends on JPII, and Sister doesn’t get her cure if JPII is in hell. Her cure is dependent on his holiness. But also, God’s action in choosing to cure her is also dependent on JPII’s holiness. That is — if JPII is a sinner then God can not do the cure — for if he did it would mislead the church and the faithful.

But God is free to cure whom he wishes — as everyone has stated.

So it goes round and round for me — God cures freely out of his love, but God can not cure if JPII is a sinner. I really get stuck thinking about this.