Interesting concern about passage in the book of prophet daniel

[Wesley7]

book of daniel chp. 4
(but you, o daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, to the end time. many shall run to and fro and knowledge shall be increased.)

what does this passage mean? it is a warning about increasing knowledge and to stop? . .

thank for your (name removed by moderator)ut (if any) to this passage in book of daniel.

. . .

 

[Della]

Daniel 12:4 according to Haydock’s Bible Commentary 1859:

Ver. 4. Shut. The vision will not be understood till the event. (Calmet) — It is not to be interpreted by human wit, but by the spirit of God, wherewith the Church is enlightened and governed. (St. Jerome in Gal.) (Worthington)

Apparently, it simply means no one will understand what is meant by the prophecy until it is fulfilled. Knowledge increasing may refer to the time of the revelation of Christ, the Father’s final Word to mankind, revealed through the Church.

 

[DPMartin]

book of daniel chp. 4
(but you, o daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, to the end time. many shall run to and fro and knowledge shall be increased.)

what does this passage mean? it is a warning about increasing knowledge and to stop? . .

thank for your (name removed by moderator)ut (if any) to this passage in book of daniel.

. . .

Wesley

Well, considering that it is true that knowledge has increased greatly in the past 100 years and travel or man’s mobility has increased greatly in the past 100 to 150 years (many shall run to and fro) and Israel is re-establish as a nation state, many believe this is that time the Lord spoke of to Daniel. It doesn’t take great revelation to read the verses you posted, and see that knowledge and mobility has greatly increased.

I believe we are coming to the end of day of the Gentiles, and Israel will call upon the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and He will come.

 

[Della]

Wesley

Well, considering that it is true that knowledge has increased greatly in the past 100 years and travel or man’s mobility has increased greatly in the past 100 to 150 years (many shall run to and fro) and Israel is re-establish as a nation state, many believe this is that time the Lord spoke of to Daniel. It doesn’t take great revelation to read the verses you posted, and see that knowledge and mobility has greatly increased.

I believe we are coming to the end of day of the Gentiles, and Israel will call upon the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and He will come.

The Catholic understanding is that the Last Days mean the time from the Incarnation until the second coming of Christ and the last judgment.

The term “running to and fro” is not a definitive one. The verse is also translated as:

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time appointed: many shall pass over, and knowledge shall be manifold.

Hanging a theory of what the verse means on one transation/phrase is not good bibilical exegesis. As we can see from the translation cited, the verse takes on another meaning within the context of the whole prophecy.

 

[DPMartin]

The Catholic understanding is that the Last Days mean the time from the Incarnation until the second coming of Christ and the last judgment.

The term “running to and fro” is not a definitive one. The verse is also translated as:

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time appointed: many shall pass over, and knowledge shall be manifold.

Hanging a theory of what the verse means on one transation/phrase is not good bibilical exegesis. As we can see from the translation cited, the verse takes on another meaning within the context of the whole prophecy.

Della
thanks for the reply

First as you say, it is a Catholic understanding. It’s easy to say the later days are after Christ, and the former days are before Christ, no need for knowledge or contemplation there. But it is obvious, that isn’t what this poster is referring to or asking about, is it?

As far as versions: It depends on what version you are using, don’t know what version your quoting from. And there are some horrendous versions comely understood as not valid out there. So dragging out some other version to prove that some thing else is written as scripture means what? Nothing as far as I can tell.

Also, you assume that it’s a theory based on a portion of scripture, but to assume is not very wise at all, is it? In your view, it’s a theory and not sound, that you declare, therefore the burden is on you to prove it incorrect with scripture. It would also be wise to make known what version of scripture you are quoting from. The Jerusalem Bible or the KJV are proven versions, a standard Catholic version proven and used through out the centuries would have to be sound also.

 

[bmullins]

My understanding, which could be flawed as I am only human, is that Daniel sealed a scroll that had a prophecy in it that man was not ready to receive. That men would continue to grow and gain in knowledge until that scroll was opened. I find it very apropos that Jesus came along in Revelation and opened a sealed scroll that no one else could open.

To me both refer to the same scroll, and John shows us that Jesus is the key. To open the old testament we must use the key, Jesus Christ. Just as he did on the road to Emmaus.

 

[Telstar]

Della
thanks for the reply

First as you say, it is a Catholic understanding. It’s easy to say the later days are after Christ, and the former days are before Christ, no need for knowledge or contemplation there. But it is obvious, that isn’t what this poster is referring to or asking about, is it?

As far as versions: It depends on what version you are using, don’t know what version your quoting from. And there are some horrendous versions comely understood as not valid out there. So dragging out some other version to prove that some thing else is written as scripture means what? Nothing as far as I can tell.

Also, you assume that it’s a theory based on a portion of scripture, but to assume is not very wise at all, is it? In your view, it’s a theory and not sound, that you declare, therefore the burden is on you to prove it incorrect with scripture. It would also be wise to make known what version of scripture you are quoting from. The Jerusalem Bible or the KJV are proven versions, a standard Catholic version proven and used through out the centuries would have to be sound also.

I think Della’s quote comes from the Douay-Rheims.[1] But at that time shall Michael rise up, the great prince, who standeth for the children of thy people: and a time shall come such as never was from the time that nations began even until that time. And at that time shall thy people be saved, every one that shall be found written in the book. [2] And many of those that sleep in the dust of the earth, shall awake: some unto life everlasting, and others unto reproach, to see it always. [3] But they that are learned shall shine as the brightness of the firmament: and they that instruct many to justice, as stars for all eternity. [4] But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time appointed: many shall pass over, and knowledge shall be manifold.
And, I think bmullins is correct that this prophecy is about the scroll referred to in the Apocalypse that only “the Lamb” (Jesus) could open. I believe it’s a reference to the time of the death and resurrection of Jesus, that brought salvation to the world. This passage in Matthew might be the fulfillment of line 2 in Daniel:Matthew 27: [52] And the graves were opened: and* many bodies of the saints that had slept arose**, [53] And coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, came into the holy city, and appeared to many.*

 

[Della]

Della
thanks for the reply

First as you say, it is a Catholic understanding. It’s easy to say the later days are after Christ, and the former days are before Christ, no need for knowledge or contemplation there. But it is obvious, that isn’t what this poster is referring to or asking about, is it?

As far as versions: It depends on what version you are using, don’t know what version your quoting from. And there are some horrendous versions comely understood as not valid out there. So dragging out some other version to prove that some thing else is written as scripture means what? Nothing as far as I can tell.

Also, you assume that it’s a theory based on a portion of scripture, but to assume is not very wise at all, is it? In your view, it’s a theory and not sound, that you declare, therefore the burden is on you to prove it incorrect with scripture. It would also be wise to make known what version of scripture you are quoting from. The Jerusalem Bible or the KJV are proven versions, a standard Catholic version proven and used through out the centuries would have to be sound also.

Sorry I didn’t cite the version quoted, but as Telstar kindly pointed out, it is the Douy-Rheims, a very old version indeed. I only wanted show that certain phrases can and are interpreted differently in various versions, so basing an interpretation on only one is not a good thing to do.

As for what the Bible says, it says a good many things that are difficult to understand without a proper interpreter. Like any document it is not an authority in and of itself–like the Constitution of the USA or any other such historical document (yes I know it’s the word of God not just an historical document ) any such document needs an interpreter. You are doing that (as is your faith community) whether you know it or not. You are not simply telling us what the Bible says you are telling us what you think it means–and that is interpretation.

The only true interpreter of Holy Scripture is the Church because it not only wrote the NT but compiled the Bible’s books, deciding which were/weren’t inspired. A link for your further researches: catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/wbible.htm This was done so all the dioceses in all the world would have the same texts for use in the liturgies of the Church–just a bit of history there for you.

The Church is perfectly aware of Daniel and Revelation and what they mean. I am only passing on a bit of what the Church’s greatest Bible scholars have said on the issue. The theory you hold to is probably the one that came out of the 19th century: dispensationalism. Here is a reference for your researches: theologicalstudies.org/resource-library/dispensationalism/421-what-is-dispensationalism.

 

[DPMartin]

Sorry I didn’t cite the version quoted, but as Telstar kindly pointed out, it is the Douy-Rheims, a very old version indeed. I only wanted show that certain phrases can and are interpreted differently in various versions, so basing an interpretation on only one is not a good thing to do.

As for what the Bible says, it says a good many things that are difficult to understand without a proper interpreter. Like any document it is not an authority in and of itself–like the Constitution of the USA or any other such historical document (yes I know it’s the word of God not just an historical document ) any such document needs an interpreter. You are doing that (as is your faith community) whether you know it or not. You are not simply telling us what the Bible says you are telling us what you think it means–and that is interpretation.

The only true interpreter of Holy Scripture is the Church because it not only wrote the NT but compiled the Bible’s books, deciding which were/weren’t inspired. A link for your further researches: catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/wbible.htm This was done so all the dioceses in all the world would have the same texts for use in the liturgies of the Church–just a bit of history there for you.

The Church is perfectly aware of Daniel and Revelation and what they mean. I am only passing on a bit of what the Church’s greatest Bible scholars have said on the issue. The theory you hold to is probably the one that came out of the 19th century: dispensationalism. Here is a reference for your researches: theologicalstudies.org/resource-library/dispensationalism/421-what-is-dispensationalism.

Della

Your response is appreciated, but I will not split hairs on interpretation, because its always a battle of who is correct and who is incorrect, when we know already that it is Jesus, and only Jesus that is correct, the Truth of God. Jesus is the fulfillment of God’s Word in man,( or better said the Son of man) in God’s Presence, which makes men children of God with power to become a sons of God. Therefore, interpretation is not required. Because the fulfillment of God’s Word, is to the Father’s satisfaction,(which is the true interpretation, if there must be one) or its not the Word of God in God’s Presence. Life is of God, not of man’s understanding, and the Word of Life is of God, not of man’s understanding, but interpretations are of man’s understanding.

For example nobody really understood what Jesus was doing, nor what He was talking about, even after He showed Himself to the Apostles when was risen, until the day of Pentecost.

Again thanks for the reply

 

[bmullins]

Della

I will not split hairs on interpretation, because … interpretation is not required.

Which is exactly why Jesus established himself a guide and a Holy Spirit that guides his Church to the truth. There is no need to split hairs when you accept the authority that Christ established.

 

[DPMartin]

Which is exactly why Jesus established himself a guide and a Holy Spirit that guides his Church to the truth. There is no need to split hairs when you accept the authority that Christ established.

bmullins
Thanks for the reply

It is true that the Bread of Life came through Jesus Christ to the Apostle. The feeding of the thousands with a few loves and fishes proves that. But the Apostles didn’t directly hand the bread and fish to every individual once given to the multitude it was passed from one to another and the remaining was more then they started with. But the authority is Christ.

No matter where the seed that sower sows falls. The instruction of Life is in the seed, and it is the ground that it is planted in, that yields to what the instruction in the seed requires of it, in order for Life to be above the ground that it should yield its fruits in its due season. But I am not aware of any exclusive ground, seeing that only the Israelites have right by flesh through the promise to Abraham. Dust to dust ashes to ashes and without the seed of Life there is no Life. Note, if you plant a seed you can’t make the ground yield to the seed nor can you make the seed grow, it is the act of God that makes that which has no Life yield Life that it can give the the Life that it is given.

Who is the authority in the Kingdom of Heaven? Then who is the authority in the Kingdom we are born into? You know just as well as I do, it is only through the Lord Jesus Christ that one will have place with Him in His Kingdom.

Again Thanks for the reply

 

[bmullins]

dpmartin,

I would go a bit further than you in my words. I would say that not only did the bread of life pass through Jesus, but that the bread of life ***is ***Jesus. I would also say that the Kingdom of Heaven is not just under the authority of Jesus Christ, but that Jesus Christ is the Kingdom of Heaven. I see him as the final authority, with full authority over the Torah, over man, and over our salvation. Which is why I follow the teachers that he established with full authority.

Jesus told his disciples, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations . . . teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.” (Matt. 28:18-20)

As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” (John 20:21)

“Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.” (Luke 10:16)

“Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” (Matt. 16:18; Matt. 18:18)

Jesus gave them authority to teach and remained with them. They themselves then with that authority appointed teachers as well, who would also have the same authority.

“They appointed presbyters for them in each church.” (Acts 14:23)

[Paul to Titus] “For this reason I left you in Crete so that you might . . . appoint presbyters in every town, as I directed you.” (Titus 1:5)

[Paul to Timothy] “And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well.” (2 Timothy 2:2)

“For a bishop as God’s steward must . . . be able both to exhort with sound doctrine and to refute opponents.” (Titus 1:7-9)

This in turn has been done for 2000 years with the same authority which came directly from Jesus Christ.

Thank you for your reply.

 

[Ranp]

…Israel is re-establish as a nation state…

Wesley

To the best of my knowledge the modern state of Israel has no biblical significances to the Catholic Church. Nor does the Catholic Church recognized Israel as the leader of Jewism. In other words, Israel is just another state. Israel can build another temple and tear it down themselves or whatever, but it will play no role in the second coming of Jesus Christ. The old covenant with Israel was completed and replaced with a new covenant centered upon the Catholic Church.

Personally I am a strong supporter of Israel since it is the only democracy in the Middle East.

Ran

 

[Wesley7]

I foresaw somewhere in the book of Daniel ~ a certain warning about the increase of knowledge and that it would stop.

 

[COPLAND_3]

Here is a quote from the Aquinas Study Bible

12:4 He who had revealed manifold truth to Daniel now signifies that the things he has said are matters of secrecy, and he orders him to roll up the scroll containing his words and set a seal upon the book, with the result that many shall read it and inquire as to its fulfilment in history, differing in their opinions because of its great obscurity. And as for the statement, “Many shall pass over” or “go through,” this indicates that it will be read by many people. For it is a familiar expression to say: “I have gone through a book,” or, “I have passed through an historical account.” But that book can be opened by one who has learned the mysteries of Scripture and understands its hidden truths, and its words which seem dark because of the greatness of the secrets they contain. He it is who can interpret the parables and transmute the letter which killeth into the spirit which quickeneth. (St. Jerome)