Intrinsicly Good or Rotten to the core

[Semp2pts]

Saying, “look how much you were worth to God” is a statement about God’s love for us, not about our goodness.

“Look how much you were worth to God” is THE statement about our worth. It asks the onlooker, you or me, to form some measure of self-worth based on the act of Christ on the cross.

Rather than you or I understanding that EVEN in our unworthiness, or unprofitability (to use the word St. Paul used when he quoted isaiah), God chose to redeem us.

The line that makes it even better is, “Even if you were the only human alive, Jesus still would have died for you”. Of course He would of - He’s that kind of God: Merciful and loving. And yet, despite that, people get hazy eyed and misty about their own reflection because of it. He would of died just for me! I sure am special.

Needing God isn’t a bad thing and somewhere along the lines I think a lot of people have ceased to need God because He’s the greatest need. They need God as an echo of their own goodness - a self-esteem hit courtesy of a God that would die for them. It ceases to be about a God that is glorified by satisfying our souls and becomes about visions of heaven where THINGS satisfy us (long lost loved ones, endless feasts, etc etc).

Are we ontologically good? Yep. Was I ever arguing that? Nope. But some how, through pride and whatever else, this had bled into our faith so that…when you think about it…we don’t actually need God…we don’t need the cross… I’m going to live to edicts of my conscience. I wont do harm. In fact! I might do some good. That’s enough. Pfft…What’d that guy die for anyway. I’m all good.

Is it such a bad thing to place us in a position where we are in such dire need for God that, heaven forbid, we might live like we need Him?

 

[Scottgun]

I think Mel Gibson’s druken rant a while back is instructive as Mark Shea put it:

As a good child of a contemporary culture, I was raised to believe that what people say when they are plastered, or insanely angry, or deeply afraid, or otherwise stripped of their normal rational faculties is Who They Really Are. We talk that way all the time. “I thought he was a good man until the mask came off and I saw the ugly Truth”. That sort of talk is natural as breathing for us.

That’s because, as Cardinal George has observed, in America everybody is a Calvinist, including the Catholics. We believe that the fall is identical with nature, and therefore believe that when you see a man in sin, you see him as he “really” is. Goodness is the mask, corruption is his true nature.

I was corrected in this false and heretical belief years ago by my favorite priest in the world (and former pastor), Fr. Michael Sweeney, now president of the Dominican School of Philosophy and Theology. The reality is quite contrary. Sin is the mask. It is not what names us but what makes us anonymous. Sin, because of the fall, is normal. But sin is never natural. It does not constitute who we are, it destroys who we are. It is only when the human person takes his place as the redeemed creature God made him that we begin to truly see his face and know his name.

Whole thing here: mark-shea.com/name1.html

 

[Semp2pts]

I think Mel Gibson’s druken rant a while back is instructive as Mark Shea put it:

Whole thing here: mark-shea.com/name1.html

I’ll pay that as the best thing yet.

 

[ABostonCatholic]

“Look how much you were worth to God” is THE statement about our worth. It asks the onlooker, you or me, to form some measure of self-worth based on the act of Christ on the cross.

You are being dishonest here. The people who say “look how much you were worth to God” are not making a statement about themselves. You may think they are, but they are not. :tsktsk:

Rather than you or I understanding that EVEN in our unworthiness, or unprofitability (to use the word St. Paul used when he quoted isaiah), God chose to redeem us.

The line that makes it even better is, “Even if you were the only human alive, Jesus still would have died for you”. Of course He would of - He’s that kind of God: Merciful and loving. And yet, despite that, people get hazy eyed and misty about their own reflection because of it. He would of died just for me! I sure am special.

Again, that’s dishonest. That’s not what people who are saying that mean and you know it. :tsktsk:

People get hazy eyed because they are awed at God’s love for them, not because they are special.

Are we ontologically good? Yep. Was I ever arguing that? Nope.

So do you believe it or not? You were just arguing against it.

But some how, through pride and whatever else, this had bled into our faith so that…when you think about it…we don’t actually need God…we don’t need the cross… I’m going to live to edicts of my conscience. I wont do harm. In fact! I might do some good. That’s enough. Pfft…What’d that guy die for anyway. I’m all good.

Nope. That’s not what I or the Church is saying. :tsktsk:

We’d have no goodness, ontological or moral, if it were not for God. But what I say when we have ontological goodness is that, being created by God, and being made in the image of God, we are good, though we act like scumbags.

You don’t think that is in the Bible?

Fine.

God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

Genesis 1:31.

Why was everything very good? Because it was made by God. Our goodness comes before any moral acts and it is separate from our moral acts. But it is our moral acts which make us evil.

Both ways, we need God. But had we’d never sinned, Christ would not have needed to be crucified. You don’t believe that’s in the Bible either?

But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us…sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned

Romans 5:8,12

Christ died because we were sinners. No sin, no crucifixion. Would there still have been an incarnation? Probably, so God would fully reveal Himself. But Christ would not have died otherwise.

In short, we were good before we did anything. Why? Because God made us. That is the ontological goodness I’m referring to. We sinned, and thus we became morally evil, yes our status as being creatures made in the image of God (which makes us good) did not change. Then Christ came, and died, and restored us through His grace. Why? Because of our moral evils, that is, our sins.

 

[baltobetsy]

Originally Posted by baltobetsy
Humans, created to be less than the angels in every respect, are not presented with irrevocable choices. When we do make a wrong choice, as in the case of sin, we are wounded, but able to be healed by the Blood of Christ. We are also affected by the inherited Original Sin of Adam and Eve, which weakens our will and makes us tend to sin.

I would have to completely disagree with you in every single sense of the word “disagree”. We are not created less than Angels. Through Jesus, our authority extends far beyond mere angels. In Jesus name, we speak with the authority of all heaven. Not even angels have the authority to cast out demons. We are the highest of all God’s creation. Angels marvel at us. It’s not supposed to be the other way round.

Please see the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Number 330, for starters.
As purely spiritual creatures angels have intelligence and will: they are personal and immortal creatures, surpassing in perfection all visible creatures, as the splendor of their glory bears witness.
Or how about Psalm 8:5-6
What is man that you should be mindful of him, or the son of man that you should care for him?
**You have made him little less than the angels **and crowned him with glory and honor.
You’re right; the angels do marvel at us, because Jesus died to save us, and because we still have the ability to change our minds and choose to love God in every circumstance. Confirmed in goodness, the Holy Angels love us with a powerful love, and do many services for us every day to assist us with our temporal needs and our salvation. But make no mistake; they are a whole different order of being, higher on the ladder of creation than ourselves.

You list yourself as an “Annoyed Catholic” in your profile. Perhaps some of the annoyance could be mitigated by some reading to help you understand what the Church actually teaches, rather than what you may have picked up over the years from various reliable or unreliable sources. May I suggest (of course) the *Catechism of the Catholic Church *and also The Faith Explained by Fr. Leo Trese, which you can buy from the bookstore at www.cicdc.org.

Betsy

 

[Semp2pts]

You’re right; the angels do marvel at us, because Jesus died to save us, and because we still have the ability to change our minds and choose to love God in every circumstance. Confirmed in goodness, the Holy Angels love us with a powerful love, and do many services for us every day to assist us with our temporal needs and our salvation. But make no mistake; they are a whole different order of being, higher on the ladder of creation than ourselves.

Unfortunately, I disagree but that is becoming less and less uncommon it seems.

Are you telling me, as an heir to the thrown of God - one of His beloved, His child, welcomed into the family - that we are lesser than an Angel in the service of the King? Ha.

You list yourself as an “Annoyed Catholic” in your profile. Perhaps some of the annoyance could be mitigated by some reading to help you understand what the Church actually teaches, rather than what you may have picked up over the years from various reliable or unreliable sources. May I suggest (of course) the *Catechism of the Catholic Church *and also The Faith Explained by Fr. Leo Trese, which you can buy from the bookstore at www.cicdc.org.

Betsy

I own both the catechism and the Faith explained. I own and have read lots of books. That doesn’t mean that I have stopped questioning.

And my annoyance isn’t a theological annoyance - it’s an annoyance that’s based on the fact that 13% of Catholics are practicing. That way more than half are 50 years and older. That the church thinks that luring young people in by hosting concerts or events is sufficient. WYD is a prime example. The answer isn’t about making things exciting - it’s about creating space for people to come into relationship with Christ. I love the mass because I meet Jesus there. If someone doesn’t know Jesus - they aren’t going to meet Him in the ritual of mass.

 

[Semp2pts]

You are being dishonest here. The people who say “look how much you were worth to God” are not making a statement about themselves. You may think they are, but they are not. :tsktsk:

Again, that’s dishonest. That’s not what people who are saying that mean and you know it. :tsktsk:

People get hazy eyed because they are awed at God’s love for them, not because they are special.

LOL. I’m being dishonest? So…wait…I know that people don’t think that but I’m saying it anyway? wth…are you for real?

Here’s a question for you then - describe the purpose of the cross that doesn’t involve humanity - i.e. one that solely focuses on God’s purpose for the cross.

We’d have no goodness, ontological or moral, if it were not for God. But what I say when we have ontological goodness is that, being created by God, and being made in the image of God, we are good, though we act like scumbags.

An orange is created good. But if you put it in a damp dark place - it gets moldy. The creator created something wonderful, but through lack of care, it is ruined.

God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

Genesis 1:31.

Why was everything very good? Because it was made by God. Our goodness comes before any moral acts and it is separate from our moral acts. But it is our moral acts which make us evil.

I was born in a state that made me seperated from God. My very nature was in a state abhored by God through original sin. I had done nothing. (Does God accepted babies into heaven, of course - don’t get caught up in that.) If I am inherently good - why am I told to put the old self to death? Why should I take up my cross and follow Christ to calvery (to death)?

“I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.”

“Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature” Galations 5:24

St. Paul always describes our natural state as being sinful. Period.

In short, we were good before we did anything.

WRONG. We were sinful before we did anything. It was by coming into the faith that we became good.

This isn’t like academic good or sporting good. It’s not two different seperate components - like you spoke of before. Sin isn’t just a shortfall in one area of our life, as if it is somehow removable. Our life isn’t an ocean with academic goodness, moral goodness, etc etc, floating about. The ocean is good, just components are bad.

Our moral goodness is the ocean. Sin turns the water brown - thus making everything smelly.

 

[ABostonCatholic]

LOL. I’m being dishonest? So…wait…I know that people don’t think that but I’m saying it anyway? wth…are you for real?

Yes. That is what I’m accusing you of.

Here’s a question for you then - describe the purpose of the cross that doesn’t involve humanity - i.e. one that solely focuses on God’s purpose for the cross. [/quotes]

I can’t describe the purpose of the cross that doesn’t involve humanity. Why not? Because Christ died on the cross to save humanity. Duh.

An orange is created good. But if you put it in a damp dark place - it gets moldy. The creator created something wonderful, but through lack of care, it is ruined.

It is still a wonderful creation, just poorly maintained.

WRONG. We were sinful before we did anything. It was by coming into the faith that we became good.

So you deny Gen 1:31, just like you denied Psalm 8:5-6 in the other post? I thought you were interested in what Scripture has to say.

We humans, before the fall, were good in every way. We were good because God created us. That hasn’t changed.

This isn’t like academic good or sporting good. It’s not two different seperate components - like you spoke of before. Sin isn’t just a shortfall in one area of our life, as if it is somehow removable. Our life isn’t an ocean with academic goodness, moral goodness, etc etc, floating about. The ocean is good, just components are bad.

Our moral goodness is the ocean. Sin turns the water brown - thus making everything smelly.

But the water-because God made it-is still good.

Anything made by God is good in so far as it is a creation of God.

 

[ABostonCatholic]

And my annoyance isn’t a theological annoyance - it’s an annoyance that’s based on the fact that 13% of Catholics are practicing.

Yet the things you’re saying here are contrary to what the Church teaches. Do you consider yourself a practicing Catholic despite that fact?

 

[Semp2pts]

Yes. That is what I’m accusing you of.

Good job. Nice to resort to name calling.

I can’t describe the purpose of the cross that doesn’t involve humanity. Why not? Because Christ died on the cross to save humanity. Duh.

Wow. It’s that simple huh. How bout this then, I have a possible answer. God didn’t need the cross to save humanity. He forgave sins well before the cross. Remember David and Bethsheba? David pleaded for forgiveness, and through the prophet, his sins were forgiven by God. Jesus wasn’t to be born for a long time after that. People have said that the cross was necessary to bridge the gap between us and God. That’s true in most respects but not for the reasons that people assume.

Lets look at the flow of events:

1. God creates the law. Sin = Death
2. Sin occurs. Death is warranted.
3. God forgives sins.
4. God has a huge problem. It says in proverbs it is wrong to “justify the ungodly”.
5. In forgiving us, God has broken His own decrees and laws.
6. Jesus is put forth as the substitute for our punishment.
7. God’s righteousness is vindicated and the whole of existance understands how seriously God takes his glory.

The cross is God satisfying God’s need for justice to be done. So that all would see that He is a just God.

Wow. That seems like it’s not just about us after all.

Yet the things you’re saying here are contrary to what the Church teaches. Do you consider yourself a practicing Catholic despite that fact?

I do actually. I love my Church, in all the great and stupid ways, I love it to bits. I love God. I love the Eucharist. I love the sacraments. And I love having the brain God gave me to question the things that most people take for granted.

I don’t care if you want to call into question my faith or my honesty. That’s your decision. You can judge me all you like. I don’t feel bad for asking the questions and posing possible alternatives.

You see, the thing is, the Church doesn’t always get it right. And it’s the people that ask the questions that help correct that. Am I saying that the Church has got this wrong? No, that’s not for me to say but, as always, I will continue to question and put my views forth.

Call me whatever names you want.

 

[Kathrin]

1. God creates the law. Sin = Death
2. Sin occurs. Death is warranted.
3. God forgives sins.
4. God has a huge problem. It says in proverbs it is wrong to “justify the ungodly”.
5. In forgiving us, God has broken His own decrees and laws.
6. Jesus is put forth as the substitute for our punishment.
7. God’s righteousness is vindicated and the whole of existance understands how seriously God takes his glory.

Just as an uminformed dtraight from the heart response to this: I like this. This sounds very loving and makes a lot of sense.

Kathrin

 

[ABostonCatholic]

Good job. Nice to resort to name calling.

Wow. It’s that simple huh. How bout this then, I have a possible answer. God didn’t need the cross to save humanity. He forgave sins well before the cross. Remember David and Bethsheba? David pleaded for forgiveness, and through the prophet, his sins were forgiven by God. Jesus wasn’t to be born for a long time after that. People have said that the cross was necessary to bridge the gap between us and God. That’s true in most respects but not for the reasons that people assume.

Lets look at the flow of events:

1. God creates the law. Sin = Death
2. Sin occurs. Death is warranted.
3. God forgives sins.
4. God has a huge problem. It says in proverbs it is wrong to “justify the ungodly”.
5. In forgiving us, God has broken His own decrees and laws.
6. Jesus is put forth as the substitute for our punishment.
7. God’s righteousness is vindicated and the whole of existance understands how seriously God takes his glory.

The cross is God satisfying God’s need for justice to be done. So that all would see that He is a just God.

Wow. That seems like it’s not just about us after all.

I do actually. I love my Church, in all the great and stupid ways, I love it to bits. I love God. I love the Eucharist. I love the sacraments. And I love having the brain God gave me to question the things that most people take for granted.

I don’t care if you want to call into question my faith or my honesty. That’s your decision. You can judge me all you like. I don’t feel bad for asking the questions and posing possible alternatives.

You see, the thing is, the Church doesn’t always get it right. And it’s the people that ask the questions that help correct that. Am I saying that the Church has got this wrong? No, that’s not for me to say but, as always, I will continue to question and put my views forth.

Call me whatever names you want.

I didn’t call you a name. I accused you of being dishonest because you were not accurately representing other’s positions.

Being a practicing Catholic means accepting what the Church says. You do not accept what the Church says. You already showed your denial of Church doctrine with respect to the position of the Angels.
Catechism:

619 “Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures” (I Cor 15:3).

620 Our salvation flows from God’s initiative of love for us, because “he loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins” (I Jn 4:10). “God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself” (2 Cor 5:19).

621 Jesus freely offered himself for our salvation. Beforehand, during the Last Supper, he both symbolized this offering and made it really present: “This is my body which is given for you” (Lk 22:19).

622 The redemption won by Christ consists in this, that he came “to give his life as a ransom for many” (Mt 20:28), that is, he “loved [his own] to the end” (Jn 13:1), so that they might be “ransomed from the futile ways inherited from [their] fathers” (I Pt 1:18).

623 By his loving obedience to the Father, “unto death, even death on a cross” (Phil 2:8), Jesus fulfils the atoning mission (cf. Is 53:10) of the suffering Servant, who will “make many righteous; and he shall bear their iniquities” (Is 53:11; cf. Rom 5:19).

The crucifixion is the expiation for the sins for all of humanity. If humanity had not sinned, Jesus would not have needed to died. Forgiveness in the OT comes from two ways: 1) anticipation of the cross, 2) animal sacrifice, or some other sacrifice (remember the death of David’s son?)

 

[DARichards]

Having come home to the Church through a Reformed Presbyterian Church, this subject was one that was very central to my conversion. The fact of the matter is that our goodness, no matter how GOOD we are, that goodness doesn’t save us. We are created in the image of God and in each of us he has placed in us a desire for him. The Catechism states in section 27:

The dignity of man rests above all on the fact that he is called to communion with God. This invitation to converse with God is addressed to man as soon as he comes into being. For if man exists, it is because God has created him through love, and through love continues to hold him in existence. He cannot live fully according to truth unless he freely acknowledges that love and entrusts himself to his creator.

I had many conversations about this with my former PCA pastor and this is one of the areas where we just could not agree. If you have two people who are equally “good” and one is an agnostic, or one who rejects Christ and his eternal sacrifice where the other is submitted totally to Christ and the good that he does is out of service to Him, the formers culpability level is extreme.

Conversely, you can have one who has full faith in Christ and his Sacrifice, yet in his life he fails to obey the commands of Christ and submit his life to Christ and his Church. This person as well has a much higher risk on the other side due to the fact that

It is only when our goodness is channeled through service to our Lord and his Kingdom that our Salvation is achieved. That is a lifelong daily mission for us.

 

[Semp2pts]

I didn’t call you a name. I accused you of being dishonest because you were not accurately representing other’s positions.

You were calling me a liar. Yes, I didn’t accurately represent every single little possible position and every possible variant of that said position. Gross generalisation? Perhaps. But that doesn’t make me a liar.

Being a practicing Catholic means accepting what the Church says. You do not accept what the Church says. You already showed your denial of Church doctrine with respect to the position of the Angels.

I’m sorry. God gave me a brain and, as Christians, we aren’t going to take the world with Aero Bars for brains. We are commanded to fill them. I consider it my duty to question, to prod, to ask and to discover. You can blindly accept things and be a human tape player playing The Churches Greatest Hits if you like BUT that’s not me and that’s not my journey.

But please. Call into question my faith as well. Is this how you solve every disagreement - “You’re not a proper catholic cause you don’t agree.”

The crucifixion is the expiation for the sins for all of humanity. If humanity had not sinned, Jesus would not have needed to died. Forgiveness in the OT comes from two ways: 1) anticipation of the cross, 2) animal sacrifice, or some other sacrifice (remember the death of David’s son?)

I didn’t disagree with any of that. LOL. You’re a strange man.

 

[Harmony1988]

Jesus said:

‘No one is good, except the Lord’

or something like that. Also considering that the Church established the fact that there is purgatory, it’s obvious that humans are intrinsically bad, I wouldn’t say ‘evil’ though, not all are ‘evil’, but it highly depends

 

[Semp2pts]

Jesus said:

‘No one is good, except the Lord’

or something like that. Also considering that the Church established the fact that there is purgatory, it’s obvious that humans are intrinsically bad, I wouldn’t say ‘evil’ though, not all are ‘evil’, but it highly depends

Yep. He says it here:

“…there is none good but one, that is, God:….” - Matthew 19:17

“For we are all become as one who is unclean, and all our righteousness are as a polluted garment: and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.” - Isaiah 64:6

I have no dispute that Jesus restores us to new life and new identity in Him - thus restored to what God intended. I am arguing against our natural state being “Good”

 

[ABostonCatholic]

You were calling me a liar. Yes, I didn’t accurately represent every single little possible position and every possible variant of that said position. Gross generalisation? Perhaps. But that doesn’t make me a liar.

You said that people praised God because of their own goodness; they did not. That makes you dishonest. Deal with it.

I didn’t disagree with any of that. LOL. You’re a strange man.

You are too inconsistent. You demanded that I explain the crucifixion apart from humanity because you didn’t like my explanation that Christ died to redeem us on account of the fact that it is focused on humanity. Now you say that you never denied that Christ’s sacrifice is the expiation of sins for humanity?

I am arguing against our natural state being “Good”

I am not going to argue with you any more, because it is obvious from my posts that you dismissed what I have said from the very beginning without making a genuine effort to understand what I said.

Would it surprise you to know that I voted that we are “intrinsically evil?” It shouldn’t. Because I think we are intrinsically evil because we are fallen creatures.

But I will say it one last time: we all have a shred of goodness because we come from and have our existence sustained by God. He does that not because of our moral worth, but because of His love for us. If He wanted to, He could wipe out our existence and all traces of it. It is only from His act of creating and sustaining us that we have any goodness whatsoever. That goodness is in our existence, our being. Our moral goodness comes from His other graces, especially the passion, death, and resurrection of the Cross. But we have no goodness whatsoever save from God.

This is what I have said from the beginning. This is what you claimed as being unbiblical. If you do not believe that, then you either do not understand what I am saying, in which case there is nothing more I can do, or you’re not really interested in what the Bible says at all, in which there is nothing more I can do for you.

 

[Semp2pts]

You said that people praised God because of their own goodness; they did not. That makes you dishonest. Deal with it.

No. Actually I never said that. Get your facts straight. Re-read it.

*I shudder when people point at the cross and say, “look how much you were worth to God”. WOW! The gospel of self-esteem. *

*“Look how much you were worth to God” is THE statement about our worth. It asks the onlooker, you or me, to form some measure of self-worth based on the act of Christ on the cross. *

That’s what I actually said. I didn’t say that they praised God because of their own goodness.

My point was that people have been (wrongly) led to believe that the highest good of the cross was their own salvation and that is wrong. The ultimate end of all of God’s acts has to point us to God. If at any point, when God does something, we end up looking at ourselves - we’ve missed the point.

You are too inconsistent. You demanded that I explain the crucifixion apart from humanity because you didn’t like my explanation that Christ died to redeem us on account of the fact that it is focused on humanity. Now you say that you never denied that Christ’s sacrifice is the expiation of sins for humanity?

I was trying to get you to look beyond the purely human implication - for the above reason. I tried to tell you that I didn’t disagree with any of the normal explanation of Christ dying on the cross, but you wouldn’t listen.

Fancy that. Focusing on God’s purpose, for Himself, in the redeeming of humanity. Heaven forbid that the creator of the universe has a motive beyond us.

I am not going to argue with you any more, because it is obvious from my posts that you dismissed what I have said from the very beginning without making a genuine effort to understand what I said.

Would it surprise you to know that I voted that we are “intrinsically evil?” It shouldn’t. Because I think we are intrinsically evil because we are fallen creatures.

But I will say it one last time: we all have a shred of goodness because we come from and have our existence sustained by God. He does that not because of our moral worth, but because of His love for us. If He wanted to, He could wipe out our existence and all traces of it. It is only from His act of creating and sustaining us that we have any goodness whatsoever. That goodness is in our existence, our being. Our moral goodness comes from His other graces, especially the passion, death, and resurrection of the Cross. But we have no goodness whatsoever save from God.

This is what I have said from the beginning. This is what you claimed as being unbiblical. If you do not believe that, then you either do not understand what I am saying, in which case there is nothing more I can do, or you’re not really interested in what the Bible says at all, in which there is nothing more I can do for you.

LOL. From the very beginning you’ve been attacking my responses, calling me a liar, telling me I’m not a practicing Catholic.

Get over yourself and your own ego. You aren’t the star of this show called existance.

Let me tell you a story.

Before there was time, there was the Father. And He was Glorious and Holy and Good and Wise and Just. And the Father loved The Son with an unending love. That love between them was the Holy Spirit and it circled back and forth between them. Everything in existance knew that this three-in-one was the most splendid, most beautiful, most important being in existance. All eyes were focused on them. And then you were made…and nothing changed. God is and always will be the star of the story and we will always be the bit-players.

Why did I ask you to explain the cross in a way that doesn’t include humanity? Because a lot of people seem to think that the earth is still the centre of the universe and that The Son revolves around them.

Wow. Tremendously off-track.

 

[m134e5]

I was with a group of friends on Saturday, band practice for a WYD Cross and Icon event in two days (wooo…2 thousand people), and we are doing a version of Amazing Grace called Amazing Grace (My Chains are Gone). Someone commented that, as Catholics, we don’t sing “that saved a wretch like me” but “that saved a soul like me” because we believe that we are inherently Good as opposed to the protestant view that we are completely corrupted by original sin.

Can anyone point me towards anything solid regarding us being intrinsicly good? There is a wealth of support for the protestant view and so far the only evidence for the Catholic view is romantic notion that “God can only create good things and so therefore we are good”. Pfft. God created Satan - Satan was corrupted. It is completely illogical and wrong to even try and say, “God created Satan and therefore Satan is intrinsicly good”. Pfft.

Can someone please offer me something decent on this point. It makes no sense at all.

I have my own view, which falls more in line with the protestant teaching than with the Churches, so I’m keen to hear what people say before I put my opinion out there.

Blessings.
Semp.

I believe we are intrinsically good. When God created mankind, he referred to His creation as “very good”. Because of the fall of our first parents, we have an inclination to do evil, and we have the stain of original sin until we are baptized. That doesn’t mean we are completely bad- we just have evil tendencies and a stain of original sin that needs to be washed away before the pure soul that God created can shine through.