Invincible Ignorance Question

[JackVk]

From what I understand, God does not hold people accountable for what they don’t know is sinful or erroneous through no fault of their own. Pius IX says that “God, in His supreme goodness and clemency, would not allow those who have never heard of our holy religion to be lost”.

I accept the immutable doctrine of “no salvation outside the Church”. However, could invincible ignorance include those who have heard of Catholicism, but have never found a compelling reason to become Catholic? For example, a lifelong Protestant who never really thought about it?

 

[esieffe]

A question many have pondered, and one that deserves an “apologetic” response, but I thought I might throw my :twocents: in.

Protestants know the ten commandments, just as we do, so there’s that. Where they immediately depart from our understanding of course is OSAS, and the detail of sin under each commandment. False idols is always a good example as there are many sins that fall under this commandment that aren’t always obvious from the top. [Worship of money etc.] Again, this is just a small example.

We know that while our sins can be forgiven, there might still be “due diligence” yet to be done. Repentance, praying for the healing of our victims, actions, or inaction’s, apologizing, supporting causes that mitigate damage from this sin, and truly making effort to avoid this sin, and the near occasion. It is often hard to know what to do sometimes after forgiveness, but I feel sure God recognizes our efforts.

This is most certainly not to say that Protestants don’t do these things themselves. I am sure some do, some don’t. The same for Catholics. Intent is a huge word in Catholicism, and there in lies the answer.

 

[dmar198]

From what I understand, God does not hold people accountable for what they don’t know is sinful or erroneous through no fault of their own. Pius IX says that “God, in His supreme goodness and clemency, would not allow those who have never heard of our holy religion to be lost”.

First, I think your quote from Pope Pius IX is a misquote. If it was accurate, it would imply that being an American Indian would be a guarantee to heaven until missionaries came. That would be false. The true quote is this one, I think: "[God’s] supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.” (Quanto Conficiamur Moerore 7)

Second, invincible ignorance can sometimes cover people who know about the Church’s existence but do not think it is the true Church.

Francisco Vitoria pointed this out in 1532 A.D.: "[If] before hearing anything of the Christian religion [the pagans] were excused [from the sin of unbelief], they are put under no fresh obligation by a simple declaration and announcement of [the gospel], for such announcement is no proof or incentive to belief… Nay…it would be rash and imprudent for any one to believe anything, especially in matters which concern salvation, unless he knows that this is asserted by a man worthy of credence…[therefore] matters of faith are seen and become evident by reason of their credibility.” (On the Indians Lately Discovered Section 2 Chapter 10)

This is an important passage from Church History because it shows an awareness by the counter-reformers that people who have heard of Catholicism can sometimes still count as invincibly ignorant. Hearing of Catholicism isn’t enough to take away invincible ignorance. The message has to be conveyed with evident reasons for its credibility. If you have reasonable grounds for doubting that Catholicism is true, you can still count as invincibly ignorant.

Another counter-reformer who understood this was Robert Persons. In 1607 A.D., while on a mission trip to an Anglican country, he wrote a book that explained (in one part) that we give Protestants the benefit of the doubt because of our doctrine of invincible ignorance:

"[We] do not easily condemn or hold all and every sort of Protestants, Puritans, or the like…[as] absolute Heretics, but [we] excus[e] them [wherever] we may by…charitable interpretation… St. Augustine…affirm[ed] to his friend Honoratus [who was] infected with the Manichean Heresy, that there is a great difference between an Heretic, and one that believeth Heretics, and is deceived by them… And hereby [he] openeth to us a door to think charitably of many Protestants, whom though we hold for deceived; yet not properly in St. Augustine’s meaning for Heretics. … And all these limitations and charitable moderations we do willingly use to calm and mitigate matters [between Catholics and Protestants].” (A Treatise Tending to Mitigation Toward Catholic Subjects in England Pages 63-65)

Both of these quotes, from Francisco Vitoria and from Robert Persons, are part of the proof that the Church has never held to the Sedevacantist interpretation of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus. It is true that no one outside the Church is saved, but it is also true that some people who Appear to be outside the Church are actually In it. In our Church’s history, many great saints and ecumenical councils have emphasized the latter point just as much as the former.

I hope this helps. Please let me know. God bless!

 

[lightacandle]

Well said dmar198. Thank you for the quotes. As a Protestant convert to Catholicism, I grew up in a Pentecostal denomination. I grew up hearing the anti Catholic rhetoric. I had to overcome all that and read and research for myself. Invincible ignorance will be the salvation of many Protestants. They are genuinely good people, prayerful and conscious of sin. Good, decent people. I have known them all my life. But they have been taught the anti Catholic rhetoric. And they truly have been lead to believe that the Catholic Church is not the true church. Many truly believe that Catholics aren’t Christians. And I’m not letting anybody off here. There is just as much anti Protestant rhetoric coming from the other side. So much wrong information on both sides. Such a lack of understanding that we worship the same God and that we share more than not in our doctrines. Too much judging going on. We are taught ‘judge not lest ye be judged.’ It’s not for any of us to say who is going to Heaven and who isn’t. But if we hope for unification between Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, and other Protestants, we will all have to soften our tones and come toward each other with love and understanding.

 

[Xuan]

From what I understand, God does not hold people accountable for what they don’t know is sinful or erroneous through no fault of their own. Pius IX says that “God, in His supreme goodness and clemency, would not allow those who have never heard of our holy religion to be lost”.

I accept the immutable doctrine of “no salvation outside the Church”. However, could invincible ignorance include those who have heard of Catholicism, but have never found a compelling reason to become Catholic? For example, a lifelong Protestant who never really thought about it?

Hi Jack,

From the Catechism of Pope Pious X:

29 Q: But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?
A: If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God’s will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation

Note that one need not be baptised, or even be Christian, to be a member of the soul of the Church, the Body of Christ. If a person isn’t aware of Baptism, but has the ‘implicit’ desire of Baptism, he is included. Pope John Paul II explained it further:

Normally, “it will be in the sincere practice of what is good in their own religious traditions and by following the dictates of their own conscience that the members of other religions respond positively to God’s invitation and receive salvation in Jesus Christ, even while they do not recognize or acknowledge him as their Saviour (cf. Ad gentes, nn. 3, 9, 11)” (Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue – Congregation for the Evangelization of Peoples, Instruction Dialogue and Proclamation, 19 May 1991, n. 29; L’Osservatore Romano English edition, 1 July 1991, p. III).

To sum it up, everyone who is in Heaven is a member of the Body of Christ. Everyone who truly seeks God and lives his life accordingly is a member of the Body of Christ and receives salvation in Jesus Christ, thus Heaven.

Xuan

 

[JonNC]

A question many have pondered, and one that deserves an “apologetic” response, but I thought I might throw my :twocents: in.

Protestants know the ten commandments, just as we do, so there’s that. Where they immediately depart from our understanding of course is OSAS, and the detail of sin under each commandment. False idols is always a good example as there are many sins that fall under this commandment that aren’t always obvious from the top. [Worship of money etc.] Again, this is just a small example.

We know that while our sins can be forgiven, there might still be “due diligence” yet to be done. Repentance, praying for the healing of our victims, actions, or inaction’s, apologizing, supporting causes that mitigate damage from this sin, and truly making effort to avoid this sin, and the near occasion. It is often hard to know what to do sometimes after forgiveness, but I feel sure God recognizes our efforts.

This is most certainly not to say that Protestants don’t do these things themselves. I am sure some do, some don’t. The same for Catholics. Intent is a huge word in Catholicism, and there in lies the answer.

Just to clarify, many communions that are generally and loosely known as Protestant do not believe in “OSAS” or perseverance of saints. Lutheranism, for example, explicitly rejects it.

Jon

 

[sirach2v4]

From what I understand, God does not hold people accountable for what they don’t know is sinful or erroneous through no fault of their own. Pius IX says that “God, in His supreme goodness and clemency, would not allow those who have never heard of our holy religion to be lost”.

I accept the immutable doctrine of “no salvation outside the Church”. However, could invincible ignorance include those who have heard of Catholicism, but have never found a compelling reason to become Catholic? For example, a lifelong Protestant who never really thought about it?

just jumping in with a thought. From what we “know” whatever possibility there is for a non-Catholic, a non-Christian to be saved, somehow, it occurs to me, they have to have some appreciation of natural law. You shouldn’t steal, commit murder or adultery, practice homosexuality, etc. as much as natural law should occur to a reasonable person. but, I don’t know how this really works.

The position of Judaism, as I understand it, is that the Sinai covenant, both oral and written parts, binds Israelites, but not Gentiles. From their point of view, those who follow the Noahide covenant (seven or eight natural law commandments) are eligible for entry into the Divine Presence after death. According to them, we Gentiles shouldn’t even try to follow the Torah – it was God’s covenant with the Chosen People, that is, the Jews, with no one else.

I’m trying to piggyback this discussion onto the original question. I don’t recall where it is in the gospels, but Jesus says something to the effect that he has sheep in his flock that we don’t know of.

I think it’s hard to boil this down to one saying, like “outside the Church there is no salvation.” If I’m not mixed up, it is Sikhs who are very peace-oriented people, peace-loving people Is it easy to say that they don’t have the law of God on their hearts?

 

[kdbueno]

Invincible ignorance is a matter of civil history, if you’re beyond that you are invincibly ignorant.

 

[alwayswill]

From what I understand, God does not hold people accountable for what they don’t know is sinful or erroneous through no fault of their own. Pius IX says that “God, in His supreme goodness and clemency, would not allow those who have never heard of our holy religion to be lost”.

I accept the immutable doctrine of “no salvation outside the Church”. However, could invincible ignorance include those who have heard of Catholicism, but have never found a compelling reason to become Catholic? For example, a lifelong Protestant who never really thought about it?

what of those who do not think it is a mortal sin to eat meat on Lenten Fridays;
If they don’t think it is a mortal sin ; is it a mortal sin for them?