Invincible Ignorance - Would This Count?

[3DOCTORS]

I have heard of studies that suggest sometimes there is more to heredity in a person’s traits than we might think. For example, shyness might be one.

From the various personalities I’ve known in my life, it seems as if there may exist a few “born mavericks” and that these may have more difficulty with authority than others. Some of the fallen-away Catholics may be these, if my prior reasoning holds up to scrutiny, of course.

There also are those who, genetics aside, are repeatedly exposed to negative talk in their families, schools, workplaces, etc. to the point where the propaganda is deeply ingrained in their minds at the very least (“The Church has no business in the bedroom” “A woman has the right to control her body” “Why would God make people gay and then say they can’t marry” etc.).

Assuming a genetic predisposition (or a super-strong environmental shaping, or a combination) toward questioning authority exist and if so would it constitute “invincible ignorance” so that even though the person seems in their words and actions to be openly and with full knowledge rebelling against Church authority, they really can’t help themselves? And thus they would be saved, most likely, unless they were total brutes or something?

This has personal relevance to me; it’s not just hypothetical - I have relatives and friends that I am concerned about - we all have them - those generally nice guys and gals who are basically decent but . . . in other words, I worry about their salvation. When I can’t convince them lovingly, I do entrust them to God and His mercy. But I am curious about this. I’ve had an easier time being obedient most of my life, and even in times when I sinned I was more lost than ready to throw my Catholic Faith out the window.

 

[SonCatcher]

Only God can know their hearts. It is not possible for us to conclude what constitutes invincible ignorance. All we can do is continue to pray and share God’s Word when we are able to.

 

[3DOCTORS]

Only God can know their hearts. It is not possible for us to conclude what constitutes invincible ignorance. All we can do is continue to pray and share God’s Word when we are able to.

I suppose so - and I guess it’d be a sticky area for moral theologians or bishops to talk about, since ambiguity could be interpreted as “loopholes” . . .

 

[fred_conty]

I can relate to you in your concern for your close ones. I remember when I was in high school and my uncle dropped by our house. we had a poker game going and he joined us for a while, and then he asked if he could see me alone for a moment. We went to the basement and poured out his heart. He was going to marry someone and knew that this marriage could not be approved by the church. He was beside himself and didn’t know what he was going to do and was very upset. So I told him never to give up in his faith and I gave him a green scapular or a miraculous medal and said that Mary never gives up on us if we don’t give up on her. I asked that he always keep it on him and never give up.

I lost contact with him for years. However he quit smoking, drinking, and lived a good life except for his marriage. The last I heard was that he received the last sacraments before he passed away. I was so happy to hear that.

I’ve had a very protected life and the only reason I can attribute that to is that I have always had
a miraculous medal on me. I believe this is one of the greatest gifts from Mary I have received.

The problem I have with it is that some I offer it too will not accept it, or if they do, they
eventually abandon it, lose it, or take it off. If I can get them to keep it on them, I absolutely
quit worring. They are in her hands now and I’ve done what she asked and I know that she will come thru. Of course I pray for them, but no more worry, because I know she will keep her promises. What a relief to have her help. She asked that it be given to everyone. She promised great graces to those who asked for them based on their trust in her.

The green scapular is a similar blessing from our mother Mary. It was given to us to give to others to bring them back to the faith in one way or another based on the giver’s trust in her. This is a great gift. To do what she asked, and to trust her absolutely, and sooner or later, they will return to Jesus thru the sacraments. I believe if it were possible, she would throw a ladder down to bring us to her Son. It is such a small thing to ask on her part for such great results.

Just a few thoughts worth considering about Mary and our spiritual concerns.

 

[3DOCTORS]

Fred, those are very good thoughts about Mary. She has so much love to give and we need only ask - for ourselves and for others. Recently I read Immaculee’ Ilibagiza’s book about Our Lady of Kibeho - Mary’s apparition in Rwanda over a decade before the terrible 1994 genocide there.

Mary was trying to reach out and touch hearts there - and was successful. Some of the people did forget - and terrible things happened as a result - but rebuilding and peacemaking are going on now. I was inspired by this to keep on asking Mary’s help in matters big and small - and for others in the way you mention. I pray a Hail Mary when an emergency vehicle goes by, for example, recalling the night my father died and hoping maybe someone prayed for him when they heard the sirens. I’m sure our neighbors did - anyway, I’m getting a little off the subject here but it just is so good to pray and Mary our Mother really wants to help us. :yup: