Is 8:20

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VBibleSociety

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I am not clearly seeing why this verse invalidates the Catholic Church. A friend has stated the following:

You don’t seem to quite understand that Isa 8:20 clearly says that anyone who teaches contrary to the Ten Commandments is not teaching the truth. Your providing mountains of quotes from early church fathers to justify changing the Sabbath to Sunday does not vindicate this change, they are all rejected by Isaiah 8:20 as not having any light. Neither can the change be justified from the New Testament, as Catholics themselves have clearly recognized:

“… is not every Christian obliged to sanctify Sunday and to abstain on that day from unnecessary servile work? Is not the observance of this law among the most prominent of our sacred duties? But, you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify.”

Isaiah prevents you from proving the 7th day Sabbath commandment change to Sunday has God’s approval.

Source: The Faith of Our Fathers, by James Cardinal Gibbons, Archbishop of Baltimore.
 
The Apostles continued to worship on Saturday (as faithful Jews) and then they gathered late Saturday / early Sunday morning to celebrate the Breaking of the Bread.

Justin Martyr’s Apology, written around 150 AD, states both the day Mass was celebrated and why it is celebrated on that day.

From Wikipedia:

“Justin called himself a Samaritan, but his father and grandfather were probably Greek or Roman, and he was brought up as a pagan.”

ststephens1928.org/Justin’s%20Apology.htm
 
Your friend’s argument makes the most sense if you consult the King James Version:
19And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? 20To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. (Isaiah 8:19-20 KJV)
The context (verse 19) indicates that Isaiah is not referring to the Ten Commandments, but to that part of the Mosaic Law of the Old Covenant which commands the Jews not to consult with mediums (them that have familiar spirits) and wizards. (Leviticus 19:31)

A generalization to the Ten Commandments and the Sabbath Commandment or to the entire Mosaic Law of the Old Covenant might be justified except, with respect to the Sabbath, the Lord says elsewhere by another prophet, “And I will put an end to all her mirth, her feasts, her new moons, her sabbaths, and all her appointed feasts.” (Hosea 2:11) The Apostle Paul accordingly describes the now voluntary and passing nature of the Sabbath observance under the New Covenant, “Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a sabbath. These are only a shadow of what is to come.” (Colossians 2:16-17) And again, “One man esteems one day as better than another, while another man esteems all days alike. Let every one be fully convinced in his own mind.” (Romans 14:5)
 
I don’t wonder that you don’t see how Isaiah 8:20 invalidates the Catholic Church. Scripture does not, and cannot, invalidate the Catholic Church, however devoutly some might wish it to do so.

For the record, here is Isaiah 8:20 (RSV):
To the teaching and to the testimony! Surely for this word which they speak there is no dawn.
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Paul’s Epistle to the Galatians, by the way, dilates on the folly of seeking to be under the Law.

And while we’re on the subject of Scripture, Catholicism is not the religion that has a poor outlook under Scripture. 2 Peter 3:15-16:
So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.
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See also 2 Peter 1:20-21:
First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
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This was the last email:

Acts 20:7-12, 1 Cor 16:2) both show Gentile converts gathering on Sunday for worship.

In Col 2:16 Paul tell us “let no one pass judgement on you in questions of food an drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a sabbath.”
What does that mean?
Again, the majority says your wrong. Why would you doubt these men, men who came so long before you only to start your own brand of Christianity in your image?

Ver. 30. The ancient Fathers think our Saviour consecrated, on this occasion, and administered the Eucharist to the two disciples. In the Acts of the Apostles, this same term, breaking of bread, is explained without difficulty of the Eucharist. St. Luke seems fond of this manner of expression, to signify that sacrament. (Calmet)

His response: Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

There is nothing you can quote to me that will negate this.Michael

biblelight.net/ -Michael Scheifler
 
These are all great responses. I can’t understand how a person can take one verse of scripture, twist and manipulate it to suite their own agenda, and then refuse to hear the truth of Christ’s Church. You have to ignore an aweful lot of history to draw some of the conclusions of this gentleman.
 
I just looked at the NAB, and, while your … friend might or might not reject that translation, the prohibition of necromancy is even clearer in the NAB than the RSV:
  1. And when they say to you, “Inquire of mediums and fortune-tellers (who chirp and mutter!*); should not a people inquire of their gods, apply to the dead on behalf of the living?”–
  2. then this document will furnish its instruction. That kind of thing they will surely say.
*[19] Chirp and mutter: a mocking reference to the sounds uttered by necromancers, as if the dead were speaking; all such practices were forbidden.
 
VBibleSociety said:
I am not clearly seeing why this verse invalidates the Catholic Church. A friend has stated the following:

You don’t seem to quite understand that Isa 8:20 clearly says that anyone who teaches contrary to the Ten Commandments is not teaching the truth. Your providing mountains of quotes from early church fathers to justify changing the Sabbath to Sunday does not vindicate this change, they are all rejected by Isaiah 8:20 as not having any light. Neither can the change be justified from the New Testament, as Catholics themselves have clearly recognized:

“… is not every Christian obliged to sanctify Sunday and to abstain on that day from unnecessary servile work? Is not the observance of this law among the most prominent of our sacred duties? But, you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify.”

Isaiah prevents you from proving the 7th day Sabbath commandment change to Sunday has God’s approval.

Source: The Faith of Our Fathers, by James Cardinal Gibbons, Archbishop of Baltimore.
Click to expand...
**CHANGING THE SABBATH **
By James Akin
catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9312chap.asp

**From Sabbath to Sunday **
**How the Church Moved Its Holy Day **
By James P. Guzek
catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9902fea1.asp
 
I believe Christ when He says:

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

His saints do not change His commandments, they keep them:

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

It’s the little horn in Dan 7:25 that thinks to change God’s commandments. That change I emphatically reject.

Michael

I can’t understand this logic.
 
VBibleSociety said:
I can’t understand this logic.
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What logic? This would not be accepted in a formal debate on the topic, unless the judge were extremely one-sided. There is no connection between Is 8:20 and changing the regular day of worship. Context people (general usage)! Context! :tsktsk:
 
I don’t see how can you quote these verses and not see the error in YOUR personal interpretation of scripture.

Now answer this question; where did your Bible come from?
We already discussed that.
You have not answered these yet.

“Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord’s Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ.”

That Council (Laodicea) replaced the 7th day Sabbath of the commandment with Sunday, yes or no?

Show me every instance in scripture where it is explicitly stated that the Lord’s supper was celebrated after the resurrection.

Show me the verse that tells me to remember to keep the first day of the week.
 
VBibleSociety-

I am becoming confused over what parts of your posts are your comments and which are quotes from your “friend”/opponent, so I may or may not be responding appropriately.

It is true that we (Catholics) worship on the first day of the week (Sunday) because the early Church first celebrated the day of the Resurrection and then transferred the Sabbath obligation to the day of the Resurrection. We believe that the Lord Jesus gave the Apostles His Authority, and we know that He stated that He was Lord of the Sabbath.

It is by this same authority that we accept the New Testament books as Scripture.

Those churches like the SDA who claim to be Christians but reject Sunday worship are on very shaky ground, because they claim the New Testament as inspired (his “show me the verse” demand) but reject the authority that established it. (Sunday worship predates the canonizing of the Scripture more than 200 years.) However they, like the Judaizers of the Apostolic age, are determined to be saved under the Law. The SDA, in fact, believe that the Second Coming is being delayed because Christians are not fulfilling the Law. 🤷 A primary emphasis of their teaching is denigration of the Church. It would appear that “Michael” is of this mindset. In my experience it is more effective to just love and pray for these people than to argue with them. . . .
 
I read Guzek’s essay.

You know, the Sabbath was not a “church” day in ancient Judaism. You know that?

The Torah mentions only three days per year when the people were supposed to go up to the Temple in Jerusalem.

I see confusion in this thread between the Saturday/Sunday issue, and the actual worship days commanded in the Torah.

It’s a better argument to worry about, why the modern Church requires us to attend Sunday Mass every week? And, then, we’ve slipped in the Saturday Mass as the ‘anticipation’ Mass for Sunday.

Nobody has mentioned what a day of Sabbath in the Torah was supposed to be – a day of celebration in the home! You weren’t suppose to do anything else but worship God and celebrate Him.

As for the SDA’s I assume that they go up to the Temple three times a year, according to the ancient Jewish calendar? NO?!!! Do they observe Yom Kippur (the Day of Atonement)? NO?!!! well, geez, what kind of worshippers are they, picking and choosing what day to observe and how to do it? I’m sorry but that position is incoherent.
 
Isaiah 8:19-22 (King James Version)

19And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

20To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

21And they shall pass through it, hardly **bestead and hungry: and it shall come to pass, that when they shall be hungry, they shall fret themselves, and curse their king and their God, and look upward.

22And they shall look unto the earth; and behold trouble and darkness, dimness of anguish; and they shall be driven to darkness.**

Ask him to prove that those authors you quoted experienced verses 21-22. Since, they did not experience those curses, then they were not speaking contray to scripture.

Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath, in Acts 2, I think the early christians met everyday to worship God, Romans 14 gives us freedom to worship anyday. Check this thread to see how to make those arguments,
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=479705
 
VBibleSociety said:
I am not clearly seeing why this verse invalidates the Catholic Church. A friend has stated the following:

You don’t seem to quite understand that Isa 8:20 clearly says that anyone who teaches contrary to the Ten Commandments is not teaching the truth. Your providing mountains of quotes from early church fathers to justify changing the Sabbath to Sunday does not vindicate this change, they are all rejected by Isaiah 8:20 as not having any light. Neither can the change be justified from the New Testament, as Catholics themselves have clearly recognized:

“… is not every Christian obliged to sanctify Sunday and to abstain on that day from unnecessary servile work? Is not the observance of this law among the most prominent of our sacred duties? But, you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify.”

Isaiah prevents you from proving the 7th day Sabbath commandment change to Sunday has God’s approval.

Source: The Faith of Our Fathers, by James Cardinal Gibbons, Archbishop of Baltimore.
Click to expand...
As many others have pointed out, IS 8:20 has nothing to do with the Sabbath. But even if it did, how is making Sunday the Sabbath violating the Commandments? The Commandments require setting aside a day for the Lord, do you really think that the name of the day is what matters to God? Point out to your friend that even Isaiah did not view the Sabbath requirements so literally. Look, for example, at Isaiah 58, in which the prophet chides the Israelites for fulfilling the formal requirements of the Sabbath while ignoring the plight of the poor and oppressed among them. He tells them that God does not want us to meet some formalistic requirement - He wants us to “loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and … break every yoke” - in other words, even Isaiah recognized that formal adherence to ritualistic laws is not what is important - love of God and service to others is. Does that sound like someone who is concerned with the name we give to the day we go to Mass?
 
VBibleSociety said:
I am not clearly seeing why this verse invalidates the Catholic Church. A friend has stated the following:

You don’t seem to quite understand that Isa 8:20 clearly says that anyone who teaches contrary to the Ten Commandments is not teaching the truth. Your providing mountains of quotes from early church fathers to justify changing the Sabbath to Sunday does not vindicate this change, they are all rejected by Isaiah 8:20 as not having any light. Neither can the change be justified from the New Testament, as Catholics themselves have clearly recognized:

“… is not every Christian obliged to sanctify Sunday and to abstain on that day from unnecessary servile work? Is not the observance of this law among the most prominent of our sacred duties? But, you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify.”

Isaiah prevents you from proving the 7th day Sabbath commandment change to Sunday has God’s approval.

Source: The Faith of Our Fathers, by James Cardinal Gibbons, Archbishop of Baltimore.
Click to expand...
The fundamental difference seems to be faith in Jesus Christ.

Christians believe Jesus Christ is God, of course. And so, as noted in the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus came to fulfill the Law.

Christians understand Scripture in light of Jesus Christ, not vice versa. Christianity is not based on a book, but on a person (Jesus Christ).

Those who do not share Christian belief in Jesus Christ will of course understand and interpret the Old Testament in a different way.
 
I’ve given up talking to Michael Scheifler, he isn’t making sense anymore. He’s a good fellow I am sure, but very confused.
 
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