Is anyone else bothered

[CassiusLonginus]

Hey CC, thanks for the reply. I was actually wondering about what you said when you said:

IMO., Pope Benedict is the best thing that’s happened to the Church in decades & he has many enemies. He could use the support of the SSPXers, as they are traditional Catholics just as he is.

And then followed it up with:

Should have been…their beliefs are much like those of Traditional Catholics.

To me it sounds like you’re saying “SSPXers’ beliefs are much like those of traditional catholics.”

? Oh well.

 

[Col317]

CradleCath,

I understand your point on the distinction between the common priesthood and the ordained priestly ministry. This is something upon which we agree. Therefore, I don’t need to give you an answer regarding “Christ… deemed a priest Himself”… etc. You seem to be asking me for an explanation of Scripture, when I am not the authority on it. Even so, I’ll say it again, I think we agree on the distinction between the laity and the priest. That said, the document you referred me to contains this text, Article 8:

*Article 8

The Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion

The non-ordained faithful already collaborate with the sacred ministers in diverse pastoral situations since “This wonderful gift of the Eucharist, which is the greatest gift of all, demands that such an important mystery should be increasingly better known and its saving power more fully shared”.(95)

Such liturgical service is a response to the objective needs of the faithful especially those of the sick and to those liturgical assemblies in which there are particularly large numbers of the faithful who wish to receive Holy Communion.

§ 1. The canonical discipline concerning extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion must be correctly applied so as to avoid generating confusion. The same discipline establishes that the ordinary minister of Holy Communion is the Bishop, the Priest and the the Deacon.(96) Extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion are those instituted as acolytes and the faithful so deputed in accordance with Canon 230, § 3.(97)

A non-ordained member of the faithful, in cases of true necessity, may be deputed by the diocesan bishop, using the appropriate form of blessing for these situation, to act as an extraordinary minister to distribute Holy Communion outside of liturgical celebrations ad actum vel ad tempus or for a more stable period. In exceptional cases or in un foreseen circumstances, the priest presiding at the liturgy may authorize such ad actum.(98)

§ 2. Extraordinary ministers may distribute Holy Communion at eucharistic celebrations only when there are no ordained ministers present or when those ordained ministers present at a liturgical celebration are truly unable to distribute Holy Communion.(99) They may also exercise this function at eucharistic celebrations where there are particularly large numbers of the faithful and which would be excessively prolonged because of an insufficient number of ordained ministers to distribute Holy Communion. (100)

This function is supplementary and extraordinary (101) and must be exercised in accordance with the norm of law. It is thus useful for the diocesan bishop to issue particular norms concerning extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion which, in complete harmony with the universal law of the Church, should regulate the exercise of this function in his diocese. Such norms should provide, amongst other things, for matters such as the instruction in eucharistic doctrine of those chosen to be extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion, the meaning of the service they provide, the rubrics to be observed, the reverence to be shown for such an august Sacrament and instruction concerning the discipline on admission to Holy Communion.

To avoid creating confusion, certain practices are to be avoided and eliminated where such have emerged in particular Churches:

— extraordinary ministers receiving Holy Communion apart from the other faithful as though concelebrants;

— association with the renewal of promises made by priests at the Chrism Mass on Holy Thursday, as well as other categories of faithful who renew religious vows or receive a mandate as extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion;

— the habitual use of extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion at Mass thus arbitrarily extending the concept of “a great number of the faithful”.*

I highlighted some texts in blue. It is up to the bishop of each diocese (and in rare cases the priest of the specific Church) to determine when the supplementary and extraordinary means of extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion are necessary.

We don’t need to argue this further. Thank you for the reference.

Col317

 

[CradleCath]

I am referring to Catholics who self-identify as Catholics for to me, the very fact that they do so leads me to believe that there is still a chance that they will return to the Sacraments & to full communion with the Church.

A February 2008 Survey by the Georgetown University Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate (CARA) reports these statistics on the issue of “Eucharist and Belief in the Real Presence.”

cara.georgetown.edu/sacraments.html

I think you have more detailed info than I do, & it’s certainly a more recent poll. The polls that I was referring to are a 1992 Gallup Poll & a New York Times poll held in 1994. I should have searched for more recent figures & I appreciate your correction.

 

[Col317]

CradleCath,

I’d like to add that it the responsibility of the bishops and the priests to oversee the catechesis of the Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion in their duties as EM’s. It is not mine. I was not aware that the document you referred me to even existed. There is a principle that the Catholic Church operates on, called subsidiarity, which I think is important to remember here. I’m not saying your concern is unwarranted, I just think you should raise the issue with your priest or bishop. I am not in the position to effect change in this area. I pray that our priests are doing the right thing with regard to how the liturgy is handled and how Holy Communion is distributed. I am not a theology major, in fact I’m a mechanical engineer, and I don’t feel I need to read every single Chuch document in order to watch over the priests of our Church. As this is Christ’s Chuch, I trust His servants, who are ordained by Holy Orders, to watch over such matters as this.

Yours in Christ,

Col317

 

[CradleCath]

CradleCath,

I’d like to add that it the responsibility of the bishops and the priests to oversee the catechesis of the Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion in their duties as EM’s. It is not mine.

This “it’s not my job” attitude is one I see often on these forums & it is SO wrong. It’s every Catholic’s “job” to see to it that the Faith of our Fathers continues, unbroken & unsullied, to the end of the age. Will we always be successful…no. But we must make the effort

Rome - In a statement of September 9, 2002, Pope John Paul II addressed the bishops of Brazil on the “serious abuses” stemming from the erroneous trend to “clericalize the laity.” Included in a list of examples of these abuses was distribution of Communion by the laity. While other items in the list such as homilies given by lay people and indiscriminate and common recitation of the Eucharistic prayer did not seem out of order for the Pope to take issue with, the practice of lay people distributing Communion has become so commonplace that its presence as an abuse seems startling.

The 1980 document Inestimabile Donum reiterated the instruction that “the faithful, whether religious or lay, who are authorized as extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist can distribute Communion only when there is no priest, deacon, or acolyte; when the priest is impeded by illness or advanced age; or when the number of the faithful going to Communion is so large as to make the celebration of Mass excessively long.”

In 1997, Rome intervened once more. Pope John Paul promulgated “The collaboration of the non-ordained faithful in the Sacred Ministry of Priest.” The document spells out that even bishops are to appoint extraordinary ministers only in cases of “true necessity.” It says, “A non-ordained member of the faithful, in cases of **true necessity, may be deputed by the diocesan bishop.” With regard to the priest, the document notes, “In exceptional cases or in unforseen circumstances, the priest presiding at the liturgy may authorize such” but only on a temporary basis. **

The 1997 document goes beyond merely stressing that extraordinary ministers should be reserved to extraordinary circumstances. It spells out that** “certain practices are to be avoided and eliminated.” Thus, "the habitual use of extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion at Mass is to be avoided and eliminated. Why**? Because it arbitrarily extends the concept of Ôa great number of the faithful.Õ

catholicinsight.com/online/church/liturgy/article_470.shtml

It should be obvious to ALL that Rome is unhappy with our common abuse of EEM’s. The fact that it doesn’t seem to be obvious, even to the Catholics among us, is quite frightening

[/QUOTE]

 

[Col317]

CradleCath,

I think you misunderstood me and have understimated how involved I am in my faith, but I can forgive you for that since I don’t even know you. Please don’t mistake my raising the principle of subsidiarity as an excuse for me to not know my faith.

So you do know where I’m coming from, here’s a little about me. I was involved in the leadership of my HS CTC (Catholic Teen Club). In college I was involved at the Newman Center. After college I have been a member of I’ve been a member of a young adult group for 3 yrs going on 4. This YA group is one of a few large groups in the country that has been going for more than 3 yrs (20sgroup.com)). As proof of this, right now a priest studying at Cambridge (who used to be our group’s pastor) is writing a template for other young adult groups to use as a reference to increase their success. Our group is 40+ weekly and 200+ on the email distribution list. We range from 18-33yrs.

I have been going to Bible Studies on Monday, and on Thursday (our main meeting) we have a rotating schedule of Catechesis, Gospel study, Lectures, Member talks (not testimonies), and “5th Thursdays”. During our Bible studies we have covered many great topics, Scott Hahn series, Tim Staples, … I’ve been listening to EWTN Sacred Heart Radio and watching EWTN for a few years… in our group I was a member for a year on the core team, then President (a nominated position, ultimately selected by a priest after some amount of prayer), then an active member on the core team again, and now I’m the service coordinator.

So, my point is this, just because I referred you to the principle of subsidiarity doesn’t mean that I don’t care about my faith. It just so happens that in all my years I haven’t come across the issue of EM. I have never been an EM, though many of my friends have (and I commend them for their service). I find it concerning that you essentially assumed that I wasn’t interested in my faith as a result of my comments. My approach would’ve been to politely encourage one such as me to take a more active approach in observing abuses in the liturgy. Perhaps I haven’t done much of this since my parish is very conservative and liturgically it would be near impossible to find abuses.

I would encourage you to continue in your reform of the Church (correcting liturgical abuses) by the means of sincerity, prayer, and humbly approaching the ordained priesthood to seek improvements.

In the future, I would appreciate you asking me about myself, rather than assuming that I’m a lax Catholic or something of that sort, but I forgive you.

Peace in Christ,

Col317

 

[Jerry_Parker]

I know that many Roman Catholics hold that it is essential to have fellowship within the ranks of the institutional Roman Catholic Church, however flawed local dioceses and parishes may be, but I have to take exception to such an unconditional attitude. What matters first, foremost, and above all is to have faith in Jesus Christ and in Credal teachins of the Holy Christian Faith. If parishes or entire dioceses have fallen into doctrinal apostasy that leads the laity to confusion and unbelief in the teachings of the Christian faith, it is better for them to worship with Christians, whether schismatics or otherwise, who have genuine Christian faith. The New Age, highly paganised, nominal Catholicism of heretics within the R.C. Church is of no avail, if they mislead Christians about what the faithful Church, the Creeds, and Holy Tradition teach. One is not saved merely by institutional affiliation.

Jerry Parker

 

[pnewton]

I know that many Roman Catholics hold that it is essential to have fellowship within the ranks of the institutional Roman Catholic Church, however flawed local dioceses and parishes may be, but I have to take exception to such an unconditional attitude.

Of course it would be natural for a non-Catholic to not understand this, but let me explain the reason. “Institutional” is not considered a bad word to Catholics. Just the opposite. The word itself has to do with our belief that Jesus Christ institued, or established the Church. But if you wish to argue against such an entrenched belief of Catholicism, that issue should be taken to the apologetics forum. This forum presumes a basid understanding in the Catholic faith. An error in the beginning is an error indeed.

 

[Rex_Tremendae]

CradleCath;4484103:

Citing polls without the background of the poll can be mis-leading. If you are saying that only 30% of every single person who calls him/herself a Catholic [and that includes Catholics from one end of the spectrum to another] believes in the Real Presence, then I wouldn’t have any problem with this statement. On the other hand, if you are implying that only 30% of Catholics who do attend Mass believe in the Real Presence then I do have a problem.
A February 2008 Survey by the Georgetown University Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate (CARA) reports these statistics on the issue of “Eucharist and Belief in the Real Presence.”

cara.georgetown.edu/sacraments.html

I can relate directly to this poll. I attended a week long diocesan retreat this past Lent at our Cathedral. The average attendance for each evening was around 900 people. We were given a question sheet to fill out the first evening and one of the questions was whether or not we believed in the Real Presence. At the end of the retreat, we were given a summary of the results of all the questions. 95% of those present said that they did believe in the Real Presence. That was the percentage of all the attendees, not only those who attended Mass weekly.
One other point. The vast majority of those attending that retreat attend the OF of the Mass.

90% of statistics and percentages are completely made up.

To answer the question of the thread, yes it is disturbing.

 

[CradleCath]

Frosty;4484203:

****90% of statistics and percentages are completely made up. ****

To answer the question of the thread, yes it is disturbing.

And your proof of the truth of your statement is…???

 

[CradleCath]

CradleCath,

I think you misunderstood me and have understimated how involved I am in my faith, but I can forgive you for that since I don’t even know you. Please don’t mistake my raising the principle of subsidiarity as an excuse for me to not know my faith.

So you do know where I’m coming from, here’s a little about me. I was involved in the leadership of my HS CTC (Catholic Teen Club). In college I was involved at the Newman Center. After college I have been a member of I’ve been a member of a young adult group for 3 yrs going on 4. This YA group is one of a few large groups in the country that has been going for more than 3 yrs (20sgroup.com)). As proof of this, right now a priest studying at Cambridge (who used to be our group’s pastor) is writing a template for other young adult groups to use as a reference to increase their success. Our group is 40+ weekly and 200+ on the email distribution list. We range from 18-33yrs.

I have been going to Bible Studies on Monday, and on Thursday (our main meeting) we have a rotating schedule of Catechesis, Gospel study, Lectures, Member talks (not testimonies), and “5th Thursdays”. During our Bible studies we have covered many great topics, Scott Hahn series, Tim Staples, … I’ve been listening to EWTN Sacred Heart Radio and watching EWTN for a few years… in our group I was a member for a year on the core team, then President (a nominated position, ultimately selected by a priest after some amount of prayer), then an active member on the core team again, and now I’m the service coordinator.

So, my point is this, just because I referred you to the principle of subsidiarity doesn’t mean that I don’t care about my faith. It just so happens that in all my years I haven’t come across the issue of EM. I have never been an EM, though many of my friends have (and I commend them for their service). I find it concerning that you essentially assumed that I wasn’t interested in my faith as a result of my comments. My approach would’ve been to politely encourage one such as me to take a more active approach in observing abuses in the liturgy. Perhaps I haven’t done much of this since my parish is very conservative and liturgically it would be near impossible to find abuses.

I would encourage you to continue in your reform of the Church (correcting liturgical abuses) by the means of sincerity, prayer, and humbly approaching the ordained priesthood to seek improvements.

In the future, I would appreciate you asking me about myself, rather than assuming that I’m a lax Catholic or something of that sort, but I forgive you.

Peace in Christ,

Col317

I didn’t assume that you were a lax Catholic, or that you are not interested in/involved with your faith. I mentioned UNINFORMED Catholics & I found it unusual that you had never heard about the documents concerning the abusive use of EEM’s. I see that you are fairly young & that might explain your unfamiliarity with them. I sincerely hope that you aren’t one of these who believe that the Catholic Church began with Vatican II & that you will look into the history of the practice of using EEM’s, of receiving Communion in the Hand, of the placement of the Tabernacle &, of course, the Mass.

I won’t give my credentials, I’d rather you judge me by the words that I write here & now & not my education re the Catholic faith, my years of service to the Church, etc.

If you are truly interested in being informed about your Church, a good place to start would be the book
Culture and the Thomist Tradition : After Vatican II, by Tracey Rowland

 

[Rex_Tremendae]

Rex_Tremendae;4489441:

And your proof of the truth of your statement is…???

It was a joke to show how utterly unreliable pulling statistics out of a hat is.

 

[Jerry_Parker]

The relevance of statistics regarding the attitude of Roman Catholics to the Mass, especially concerning the Real Presence of Our Lord in the elements of the sacrament, can be debatable, but it is not so surprising, after so many years of liturgical change, experiment, and decay, that the opinions of Roman Catholics have drifted seriously. The new liturgies since Vatican II, and the more so since the Novus Ordo of 1970, trivialise the Mass and make the seeming importance of people-to-people relationships more important than the great work of God in consecrating the sacred elements to the very Body and Blood of Christ and in knitting believers to God Himself rather than just in solidarity one with others.

For one who recalls the Latin Mass as it was celebrated in its Tridentine form and/or as it existed in the glorious but brief time that the 1962 Missale Romanum prevailed, the revised Mass seems tedious and trivial. That may seem strange to some, that a Mass that is less complex could be so tiresome and lacking in grandeur, but it is true. It is hardly any wonder that the faithful, such as they are, lose confidence in Christ’s splendid Work of Sovereign Grace in the Mass in giving Himself to believers so wholly, concretely, and unconditionally. So, I do believe that the statistics regarding R.C. attitudes toward the Real Presence which indicate a belief in the “Real Absence” of Our Lord in the Sacrament of the Altar are not surprising at all.

It is a pity that the bishops in the U.S. and in Canada so oppose the Liturtical (genuine) Renewal that Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI permit and even encourage, to return to the 1962 Mass, to revise forms, texts, and translations of the Liturgy, to recapture the Mass of all the ages. The decline in liturgy and in perception of what the Mass entails also accords with the erosion of orthodox doctrinal standards and in the general tendency to question the supernatural that so afflict the Bishops, other clergy, and, hence, laity alike. With so little respect for what the Mass is, it is not surprising that there is so little urge to return to the standards and attitudes of former times in the history of the Church. The resistance to the best, but too feckless and feable, efforts of recent Popes to improve worship only abets the continuation of decline in the Roman Catholic Church.

Jerry Parker

 

[Jerry_Parker]

In reply to another submission to this forum, I have not mean any disrepect in using the name Roman Catholic Church in my contributions. After all, the official name in Latin is, has been, and always was Sancta Ecclesia Romana. You may have a point about using the term, Eastern Catholic Churches, rather than Uniate, however; in any case there is no question of confusion about to what one refers in the use of either of these terms for Byzantine Rite Churches in union with the Roman See.

I was not attempting to be confrontational.

Jerry Parker

 

[Col317]

CradleCath,

I’m 27. I’m a post-Vatican II Catholic, but I don’t define myself as that. I’m sure you have more perspective, even still I don’t see a point in making the distinction. Perhaps you can give me a good reason to do so? I think there are already enough distinctions amongst Catholics as it is. In any case, there are those that are learning about their faith and those who have abandoned it and so on. The two of us are those who are learning about our faith. I bet if you listed all the documents I’ve read against yours, you may have read a lot more. That means you could teach me a thing or two about my faith, but perhaps there’s something I could teach you. I’m by no means implying I could, but I’m just finishing the logic of my statement. In any case, my lack of knowledge in some areas does not alter my view that I was saved, I’m being saved, and I hope to be saved by Christ and obtain Heaven. I think Christ knows your heart and mine are the same in that respect.

Thank-you for the link.

Col317

 

[Jerry_Parker]

Cradle Cath,

It is not clear if your comments are directed to me, to someone else, or to all generally. At any rate, I like your open attitude regarding how we all can learn from each other and be accomodating, within reason.

I hope that with age (and I am 65 now) that I am learning not to be overbearing. I hope that I have not sounded as though I was such.

Jerry Parker

 

[weepixie71]

i definitely see a strong split in the catholic church. i even see it with the priests and bishops now. i lived in st louis, mo and had the traditional mass always available for me. my husband got a new job and we had to move to peoria, il. here, it is very hard to find a traditional mass. well the closest one is 45min away and over the summer it is 7:15am. could they make that any more difficult for people with children.

all i know is that i feel the novus ordo got out of control. the pope never ok’d RCIA classes, they did it anyway. they pope never said it was ok for women to attend mass with their heads uncovered either but women just didnt want to and the priests didnt do anything a bout it, pope john paul the second said no to female alter girls, they did it anyway, they removed our catholic saint statues, most removed their large crucifixes, communion rails are no longer found in the new churches built, our beautiful stain glass windows no longer have saints or catholic symbolism, a band and choir are at the front of the church distracting us from the concecration, if a church should happen to have candles to light they flicker by a light bulb. they say the mass the same as any protestant service. i dont even want to discuss the way people dress when they attend the novus ordo. most protestants wouldnt dream of attending their church service dressed the way we do and they dont even have a consecration. i recently went to a lutheran wedding and they even had the same missal as the novus ordo mass. i dont want to worship like protestants (the very people who protest against the truth). i want to worship like a catholic. if we took a person who was cathoic before vatican II would they even recognize a catholic church much less a catholic mass.

as far as im concerned as a catholic i am to follow the pope. not a bishop or priest. if they ignore the pope and do whatever they want to then how can they call themselves catholic???

 

[Jerry_Parker]

Wee Pixie 7l,

You are so right to bring up the subject of all of these abuses in the Novus Ordo Eucharist and what goes on in its name and for its sake.

You are right, too, to blame the local bishops and priests rather than the Popes. However, the Pontiffs are not free of blame either. The Papacy has relinguished its exercise of authority over local clerics for so long now that I doubt that much can be done to reverse these and other abuses. Perhaps it took until the seond half of the 20th century to show that the Roman Catholic system of authority is not so superior, in resisting changes and abuses, as R.C.s once had thought it to be.

If the Papacy ever is to regain real authority, it must pass from expression of good sentiments and sound preferences of recent popes to taking real action, to reverse all the horrifying damage that has occurred “under their watches” for altogether too long now. If the Papacy does not take forceful action, if it does not exercise its authority, of what demonstrable worth or credibility is it? Pope Benedict XVI (or, if not he, then one of his eventual successors) must act boldly, not merely pronounce interestingly, if the trend is to be reversed. Doing so, i.e. taking some action and exercising the Pope’s authority to do so, may alienate some, even many, presently within the fold of the Roman Catholic Church, but they surely belong on the outside, anyway!

Jerry Parker