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mdgspencer
Guest
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This is to hear Catholic’s opinions on this.
This is to hear Catholic’s opinions on this.
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apndh
Guest
In short, yes.
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arvo
Guest
God created people to be pro-choice, God gave the people the gift and responsibility of pro-choice. God gave the people the freedom, the free will, the means and advises, the responsibility to take the decisions that are in accordance of God’s will or contrary to it.
God gave people the pro-choice. What are we, the people, to take this free choice, pro-choice, the responsibility away?
What are we, the people, to take this responsibility away with the full force of the Big Government and law enforcement and full force of army and policy and others worldly powers through the Big State structures?
Pro-choice is not the advise and even less it is the obligation to do abortion. No, the pro-choice is the system which puts the moral decision on the shoulders of woman and her partner and her local or global community (which can or may not help socially and economically to take the right decision and create the circumstances for morally good decision). I.e. pro-choice is the mechanism how the commandments and Catholic Church work. Commandments are moral advises and not the state law. Church and God teaching is the moral encouragment and not the physical law of Big State law. If God wanted to take the free choice and responsibility away from the people and communities of help and charity the God would have created theocracy or put other constraints on the free will.
But then - then the human being would not be in God’s image (contrary to the Bible) - with freedom and responsibility.
God gave people the pro-choice. What are we, the people, to take this free choice, pro-choice, the responsibility away?
What are we, the people, to take this responsibility away with the full force of the Big Government and law enforcement and full force of army and policy and others worldly powers through the Big State structures?
Pro-choice is not the advise and even less it is the obligation to do abortion. No, the pro-choice is the system which puts the moral decision on the shoulders of woman and her partner and her local or global community (which can or may not help socially and economically to take the right decision and create the circumstances for morally good decision). I.e. pro-choice is the mechanism how the commandments and Catholic Church work. Commandments are moral advises and not the state law. Church and God teaching is the moral encouragment and not the physical law of Big State law. If God wanted to take the free choice and responsibility away from the people and communities of help and charity the God would have created theocracy or put other constraints on the free will.
But then - then the human being would not be in God’s image (contrary to the Bible) - with freedom and responsibility.
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fredystairs
Guest
So it’s ok to choose to kill an innocent human being, regardless of age, and it is wrong for the government to intervene? Why, then, do we have police who work murder cases?
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Vico
Guest
We are called to make the civil laws conform to the moral laws. See the Catechism of the Catholic Church
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arvo
Guest
It is very simple. If some moral commandment is 1) (almost) universally recognized and 2) its violation harms other people, then this commandment is made into law.
Abortion (its different forms) is not universally recognized as major threat, there are many discussions and consequential paradoxes about it.
Regarding “natural law” (law that is in accord with the right reason) - this law is changing according to scientific discoveries and technological advances.
Just two examples:
Abortion (its different forms) is not universally recognized as major threat, there are many discussions and consequential paradoxes about it.
Regarding “natural law” (law that is in accord with the right reason) - this law is changing according to scientific discoveries and technological advances.
Just two examples:
- it was universally considered that all people should die from the age (at least). But now it is becoming evident that death-from-age can be avoided and that rejuvenation can be possible, e.g. First hint that body’s ‘biological age’ can be reversed and Turning back time with emerging rejuvenation strategies | Nature Cell Biology
- it was universally considered that the mind and consciousness is the distinctive and non-reproducible feature of human being. But Artificial General Intelligence studies pursue the intelligence that surpasses the on of human beings and the first victories are already achieved: Juergen Schmidhuber's home page - Universal Artificial Intelligence - New AI - Deep Learning - Recurrent Neural Networks - Computer Vision - Object Detection - Image segmentation - Goedel Machine - Theory of everything - Algorithmic theory of everything - Computable universe - Zuse's thesis - Universal learning algorithms - Universal search - Kolmogorov Complexity - Algorithmic information - Super Omega - Speed Prior - Independent component analysis - ICA - Financial forecasting - Evolution - Reinforcement learning - POMDPs - Reinforcement learning economy - Hierarchical learning - Metalearning - Learning to learn - Self-Improvement - Genetic programming - Attentive vision - Active exploration - Theory of beauty - Theory of creativity - Theory of Humor - Facial Attractiveness - Low-complexity Art - Lego Art and Journal of Artificial General Intelligence
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Hodos
Guest
Yep. Ten characters.
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arvo
Guest
It is very easy to go into casuistic about abortion, but I invite instead everyone to focus on the social and economic justice. E.g. the figures about hunger and malnutrition are are horrifying: Global hunger continues to rise, new UN report says
And that is only about food, the picture is even more grave when we look at the other basic necessities. There is so, so far to be able to even think about “integral human development” for which the Popes and Church is calling.
Why we are not making the hunger and poverty inducing measures a similarly grave sin as abortion?
And that is only about food, the picture is even more grave when we look at the other basic necessities. There is so, so far to be able to even think about “integral human development” for which the Popes and Church is calling.
Why we are not making the hunger and poverty inducing measures a similarly grave sin as abortion?
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Hodos
Guest
What part of You Shall Not Murder do you not understand?
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arvo
Guest
As far as understand then Science is open about the status of fetus. I have not time for discussion about that, but I commit to the general consensus. I need go back to my own studies and research in my own field. Good luck!
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arvo
Guest
Ah yes, because my first instinct when I see a hungry person is to advocate for killing them rather than feeding them.
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For many the first instinct is to bashing the poor people, and only then some are able to give 50 cents or dollar away and there is not so many people who are really interested in giving the poor people the real opportunities for education and growth and “integral human development”.
Its not personal attack. I am sure that you are not this type of person, but I have seen so much bashing against poor people and their own guilt that I should remind that such opinion really exist and is quite powerful in certain political parties.
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For many the first instinct is to bashing the poor people, and only then some are able to give 50 cents or dollar away and there is not so many people who are really interested in giving the poor people the real opportunities for education and growth and “integral human development”.
Its not personal attack. I am sure that you are not this type of person, but I have seen so much bashing against poor people and their own guilt that I should remind that such opinion really exist and is quite powerful in certain political parties.
Suudy
Active member
If you believe holding any of the following pro-choice positions are sinful, then with respect to abortion, the pro-choice position would also be sinful:
I’m pro-choice. I’m personally opposed to slavery, and I would never own one myself, but people are free to choose for themselves.
I’m pro-choice. I’m personally opposed to rape, and I would never rape anyone, but people are free to choose for themselves.
I’m pro-choice. I’m personally opposed to theft, and I would never steal from anyone, but people are free to choose for themselves.
I’m pro-choice. I’m personally opposed to murder, and I would never murder anyone, but people are free to choose for themselves.
I’m pro-choice. I’m personally opposed to abortion, and I would never have one, but people are free to choose for themselves.
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Polak
Guest
I would say yes, but I suppose those women who have had an abortion, believing it wasn’t a human being yet, haven’t sinned if they truly believed that.
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Hodos
Guest
I rarely see people actually bashing poor people. What I see are people making arguments that we should not create systems that incentivize bad decision-making. This is why you see people debate things like requiring drug tests to receive public assistance. This isn’t a slight on people who require public assistance nor is it attempt to punish people who require public assistance. It is an attempt to dis-incentivize lifestyles that result in crime and permanent poverty. I am sure other examples abound.
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Suudy
Active member
I agree that we don’t know for sure. However, as I posted on other threads, full knowledge is a key component. Also required is full consent. I think for women, the latter is the probably the most compromised. But in the case described by @Polak, I think it likely is. From the CCC:
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arvo
Guest
We should provide the opportunities for good decision-making. The bad decisions in the most cases arise from the lack of opportunities. Loss of hope effectively turns off rational decision making. There can be little rational decisions when the opportunities to make ones are lacking. And there are so much “businesses” (extremely bad businesses) which profit from the people lacking opportunities and there are political forces which support such business models and profits. It is utmost important to stop such practices but any political decisions in this regard are very hard because of single-issue thinking.
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Suudy
Active member
Oh, I agree. All will be judged. But as noted in 1860, “Unintentional ignorance can … remove the imputability of a grave offense.” It is possible for a woman who procures an abortion to bear no punishment. Despite the prooftexting of some citing 2272 and latae sententiae, I do think God knows our minds and hearts, and may forgo damnation for some who procure abortions.
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SuperLawyer
Guest
Not only is a sin, but the Church prescribes a very strong penalty, i.e. latae sententiae (Automatic Excommunication) not only to the person who undergoes the abortion but also to everyone who aided in it’s occurrence.
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arvo
Guest
Abortion is the sin, of course. But the life goes on and there are lot of other issues that must be solved as well. Unfortunately, there are self-interested persons, parties and businesses that focus on the exploitation of the differences and divisiveness and not on the common paths towards well being of all. We should just be patient and sometimes collaborate with them, sometimes there is simply no way around. And meanwhile we can grow our own muscles and at some time become decision makers and then we will be able implement full program - starting, of course, with social and economic justice.
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