Is Birth Control Valid in certain circumstances?

[wanner47]

No. I am saying that I see a lot of people walking around with wooden clubs here, and trying to fish with them. Hitting the water with a club is pointless. I find it hard to believe that a moral system which has evolved for 2,000 years is too obtuse to understand the nuances of every day moral decisions. In the example of the truck driver and the prostitute there is more than one moral choice to make. One choice if made poorly does not release the truck driver from being able to make the second choice in the best way that he is able.

It’s very simple. We may never do evil so that good may result. That’s straight from the Bible. The truck driver can make the right choice, and should make the right choice. But if he’s being told he doesn’t have to because he’s too stupid and weak and African to do so, then he probably won’t.

I find your “soft bigotry” offensive. Do you feel that all African men are too stupid to know proper moral behavior?

As for loving that Catholic Church, I have no idea if the truck drive in this example does. But I can tell you that plenty of Popes have made objectively bad moral choices, some of them beyond the imagination of the modern mind in their brutality and cruelty - mortal sins as extreme as can be imagined.

Absolutely.

Yet, I don’t question that they loved the Catholic Church. They were just human as I am, and they made mistakes as I do. Fortunately for me and for the rest of the world, I am not in a position of such influence that my mistakes have as far reaching consequences.

I’m thankful for that as well, and I’m thankful that God’s protection of the Church preserved those bad Popes from *teaching *error in the realm of faith and morals, even though they did not practice morality in their daily lives.

 

[Rock_Happy]

It’s very simple. We may never do evil so that good may result. That’s straight from the Bible. The truck driver can make the right choice, and should make the right choice. But if he’s being told he doesn’t have to because he’s too stupid and weak and African to do so, then he probably won’t.

I find your “soft bigotry” offensive. Do you feel that all African men are too stupid to know proper moral behavior?

Absolutely.

I’m thankful for that as well, and I’m thankful that God’s protection of the Church preserved those bad Popes from *teaching *error in the realm of faith and morals, even though they did not practice morality in their daily lives.

Simple for you, but not so simple in real life. This is why the Church is failing in its mission today.

 

[wanner47]

Simple for you, but not so simple in real life. This is why the Church is failing in its mission today.

Where in the Bible did Jesus teach that being a Christian would be easy? We don’t do good because it is easy, we do good because it is wrong to do evil.

I’m very sorry that you prefer to do what is easy instead of what is right.

As for the Church failing in its mission, I strongly disagree with you. Look at what’s happening in African countries right now. In all the countries where condoms are thrown at the populace, AIDS is rising. In Uganda, where the Church is strong and abstinence and chastity are being taught, AIDS is declining.

catholiceducation.org/articles/sexuality/se0074.html

northwestern.edu/magazine/northwestern/fall2003/studentlife/farrell.htm

 

[samiam1611]

“abortificant” is the wrong term. A certain amount fertilized eggs simply don’t implant for a variety of reasons. The purpose of the pill is to stop ovulation, which means a vastly reduced chance of fertilized eggs. On the extremely small chance an egg is fertilized while on the pill, the egg might not implant because of the cycle the body is in…which is exactly what happens when one is not on the pill.

The only difference between the causes is that in the case of the pill, a hormone is being taken for three weeks out of the month. This in not, say, a copper IUD, which is completely unnatural and truly abortificant.

Most couples that practice NFP don’t know that fertilized eggs not implanting occurs all the time, nor do couples on the pill realize that there is a remote chance of this happening (though much less often). In either case, these are not “murders,” as some extremely radical individuals like to refer to them as.

Actually, while the copper IUD is unnatural, it is not abortifacient. “The existing evidence **does not support **the theory that the mechanism of action of IUDs includes the destruction of embryos in the uterus.” Copper IUD’s “hinder ascent of sperm to the fallopian tubes (where fertilization occurs) or reduce the ability of sperm to fertilize an egg.” That’s contraception, not abortion.
fhi.org/en/rh/pubs/factsheets/mechact.htm

 

[Mberg3]

Maybe this analogy will help.

Mike and Claire know that they are named sole heirs of Mike’s wealthy grandmother and are looking forward to their inheritance. One night, Grandma dies peacefully in her sleep. Mike and Claire inherit and live happily ever after.

versus

Mike and Claire know that they are named sole heirs of Mike’s wealthy grandmother and are looking forward to their inheritance. One night, Mike smothers his grandmother with a pillow, and she dies. The death is assumed to be due to natural causes and the family declines an autopsy. Mike and Claire inherit and live happily ever after.

The end is the same: Grandma dies. Do you think both means are moral as well?

You dont understand at all. There is an inconsitency in this analogy. In mine both the INTENT and the END are the same; only the MEANS are variable.

In your example the intent of the first one is the Intent is to LEGALLY INHERIT (moral) the MEANS is Natural Death (amoral) and the END is LIVE HAPPILY EVER AFTER (amoral).

In the second one the INTENT is MURDER[to gain money] (immoral) the MEANS is PILLOW (amoral) and the END is LIVE HAPPILY EVER AFTER (amoral).

as you can see the Intent is the variable as well as the means

If the Grandma Died in a CAR CRASH (different means) It would be just as moral as long as the intent is the same.

 

[Rock_Happy]

Where in the Bible did Jesus teach that being a Christian would be easy? We don’t do good because it is easy, we do good because it is wrong to do evil.

I’m very sorry that you prefer to do what is easy instead of what is right.

As for the Church failing in its mission, I strongly disagree with you. Look at what’s happening in African countries right now. In all the countries where condoms are thrown at the populace, AIDS is rising. In Uganda, where the Church is strong and abstinence and chastity are being taught, AIDS is declining.

catholiceducation.org/articles/sexuality/se0074.html

northwestern.edu/magazine/northwestern/fall2003/studentlife/farrell.htm

I really don’t appreciate your habit of making up lies about people. You don’t know what I prefer, and you are old enough to know that you don’t know that. Therefore, you are consciously lying when you make statements like that.

I agree with you that education makes a big difference in disease transmission. You have a very difficult case to prove if you claim is that abstinence only education is the most effective from of HIV transmission reduction. Please provide the data for that.

The Church is growing in the undeveloped parts of the world, and its membership is declining in the developed world. Perhaps “failure” was too strong of a word overall. I will restate my assertion. The Catholic Church is failing in its mission in the “developed” world. where its membership is declining as a percentage of population, and ever larger percentages of professed Catholics are ignoring Church doctrine. For example, Spain and now Brazil have legalized gay marriage. The Church’s membership is growing in the “underdeveloped” areas of the world, though the Muslim religion is growing much faster in these areas.

 

[wanner47]

You dont understand at all. There is an inconsitency in this analogy. In mine both the INTENT and the END are the same; only the MEANS are variable.

In your example the intent of the first one is the Intent is to LEGALLY INHERIT (moral) the MEANS is Natural Death (amoral) and the END is LIVE HAPPILY EVER AFTER (amoral).

In the second one the INTENT is MURDER[to gain money] (immoral) the MEANS is PILLOW (amoral) and the END is LIVE HAPPILY EVER AFTER (amoral).

as you can see the Intent is the variable as well as the means

If the Grandma Died in a CAR CRASH (different means) It would be just as moral as long as the intent is the same.

No, you are mistaken.

If a couple is using the birth control pill, their INTENT is to avoid pregnancy (moral) by acting against conception – contraception – by using artificially high levels of hormones to screw up a woman’s natural fertility (immoral). In addition, if they are using the Pill, they are presumably okay with any babies dying as the result of the Pill making the uterus inhospitable (this is one of the Pill’s secondary mechanisms, as admitted by the FDA). The Church teaches that using contraception as a means to space pregnancy is an immoral method toward a moral end.

If a couple is using NFP, their INTENT is to avoid pregnancy (moral) by working with God’s design for our fertility (moral). They are not using anything artificial to mess with that design; rather, they are using the God-created infertile periods to engage in the marriage act, and abstaining during the fertile period (even St. Paul says that it’s permissible for married couples to abstain by mutual consent), while all the while knowing that God is in charge and willing to accept any babies they may be blessed with in the meantime.

The intent is the same, the ends are the same, but the means are very, very different.

 

[wanner47]

I really don’t appreciate your habit of making up lies about people. You don’t know what I prefer, and you are old enough to know that you don’t know that. Therefore, you are consciously lying when you make statements like that.

What lies? I have no idea what you’re talking about. I am going by your own words. If I misunderstand you, please clarify.

I agree with you that education makes a big difference in disease transmission. You have a very difficult case to prove if you claim is that abstinence only education is the most effective from of HIV transmission reduction. Please provide the data for that.

I provided two links in my above post. Please see them.

The Church is growing in the undeveloped parts of the world, and its membership is declining in the developed world.

Yep, sin makes us stupid. Christianity in general is failing in the secular world; it’s not just Catholicism. More and more people are turning to sin. It’s very sad.

Perhaps “failure” was too strong of a word overall. I will restate my assertion. The Catholic Church is failing in its mission in the “developed” world. where its membership is declining as a percentage of population, and ever larger percentages of professed Catholics are ignoring Church doctrine. For example, Spain and now Brazil have legalized gay marriage. The Church’s membership is growing in the “underdeveloped” areas of the world, though the Muslim religion is growing much faster in these areas.

Like I said above, Christianity in general is failing. That’s because people are turning to sin. Jesus warned this would happen so I can’t say I’m all that surprised.

 

[Elizabeth502]

The Catholic Church chose for a variety of reasons to support the Third Reich in some ways.

[emphasis mine]

To say that is to proclaim that the institution of the Catholic Church delilberately, officially supported the Third Reich. That is a blatant misrepresentation of hisitory.

We don’t know all of the reasons. My assumption is that they felt that more lives might be endangered in Axis occupied areas if they took a stronger moral position. Yet, there were individual priests who showed tremendous moral fortitude, and some who were cowards, with others falling in between. The point if this is that there is a moral continuum.

No. That is not “the point.” The point is that in times of political or physical danger, one will find human beings – not demi-gods, but human beings – who will rise to the level of extraordinary bravery, and others who will use passive (protective) means for survival, still others who will engage in safer forms of everyday righteousness, others who will detach or escape from the danger as much as possible. Those variants in behavior have nothing to do with (1) moral teachings or (2) official positions of an institution.

Every clergymember, for all times, in the Roman Catholic Church, including those who have, or will have, the title of Saint, is a sinner. Every. Single. One. The Church has never claimed otherwise.

That fact does not “prove” a continuum of anything except the continuation (stasis) of a fallen human nature.