Is bowing down to a Mary statue idolatry?

[blueonion]

Actually you don’t need to be a Catholic to figure that anyone who is in heaven is Greater than anyone who is on earth especially those who is on the top of the hierarchy (if we think of it that way).

Imagine an angel go down from heaven and you saw it. What will you do? stand and still hold your beer… doubt it. We would instantly fear such holy presence and will make us bow. Consider that Mother Mary once in heaven is greater than this angels. We don’t have to treat him like a God but if you consider her status now, she can be considered a celestial being. The least in the kingdom of heaven is still far greater than anyone who still remains on earth, so if someone bowed to a presence of a king or queen, what more the presence of Mother Mary Herself who is higher than the least in the kingdom of heaven. So bowing to her image isn’t really about having a new God or making her equal to God but just a gesture of respect to her memory and status. Since her presence isn’t on earth but her existence is in the higher order than ours.

 

[DarkLight]

This picture is what these discussions remind me of:
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
The woman she’s bowing down to is her human, earthly mother. I do not think anyone would consider that idolatry.

 

[blueonion]

Im sure God didn’t really mean that bowing means making someone a God before them but rather forbid bowing as a mean of making SOMETHING equal or above him. Like in the case of Idolatry where an unknown thing was treated as a creator of things similar to how Greeks saw their man made Gods.

Bowing was always a gesture to show respect so there’s really no bad thing about it. The only thing that can make it unlawful is when the intention of doing it violates the commandment. Like, let me give a ridiculous realistic example, bowing to woman for SEX , it does happen. Or bowing to an evil entity. Or again, bowing to treat someone a GOD.

 

[do_justly_love_mercy]

When you are in the presence of royalty, you venerate them as a sign of respect you have for them.

Surely it depends where you are from. As an American, it would not occur to me to “venerate” a member of a royal family. If you are from a country that is a monarchy, I can understand that that would be your tradition, and you would perhaps even extend the courtesy to members of the royal families of other monarchies, but as a citizen of a republic I would never bow or curtsy to a member of a royal family.

Jesus (being the God-Emperor)

His mother, the Empress

I am familiar, in the English language, with the title “Christ the King” and also with various Marian titles such as “Queen of Heaven” (and a dozen or more other titles including the word “Queen”), but I am not familiar with the title Emperor and Empress being used for Jesus and Mary. Are you translating “Pantocrator” as “Emperor” perhaps?

I personally do not bow to statues of Mary because in my culture, a bow is reserved for Jesus the King, especially if one is female.

Out of curiosity, are you able to explain why the practice of bowing before Jesus as a king is something that in your culture is especially done by women?

 

[Vico]

So just to make sure I am understanding you and everyone else, bowing to a statue of Mary can be idolatry but it just depends on what the person is thinking. If they are just remembering Mary and bowing to pray to her that’s fine, but if they are bowing to a statue because they believe Mary’s spirit is in the statue that would be idolatry.

Idolatry is giving divine honors to a creature. The worship called veneration is not divine honors since it is not done believing that the creature is God.

For valid veneration of Christ, using images of Christ, for example, the person knows that in the images there is no divinity or virtue on account of which they are to be worshipped. Christians do not worship statues or icons as idols.

 

[C.Longinus]

The only thing I prostrate myself to is the Tabernacle because of Him who dwells in it.

 

[Sursumcorda1]

but the Protestant usually comes back and says that when we bow down to Mary it is idolatry and sin.

When I hear these arguments, I always ask why they ignore Mary and only mention her at Christmas programs.

 

[MCA]

I am protestant and sadly I have to say “we” have stated some silly arguments. Let me go straight to the issue: In Exodus we have the arch with cherubims and people bowing down due to the presence of the the Lord in the ark. Sure they are not bowing down in a singularity manner to the cherubim, that’s true.

In the early church this was an issue for Celement of Alexandria who missreead the passage in the exodus like this:

And those golden figures, each of them with six wings, signify either the two bears, as some will have it, or rather the two hemispheres. And the name [cherubim] meant much [knowledge]…

For He who prohibited the making of a graven image, would never Himself have made an image in the likeness of [holy] things. Nor is there at all any composite thing, and creature endowed with sensation, of the sort in heaven. But the face is a symbol of the rational [soul], and the wings are the lofty ministers and energies of powers right and left; and the voice is delightsome [glory] in ceaseless [contemplation]. Let it suffice that the mystic interpretation has advanced so far. (Stromata)

 

[MCA]

This only is an evidence that the early church had a tendency to aiconism. And I am going to post some quotes of the fathers and early writters

Athenagoras (177 A.D.) in A Plea for Christians ch.15 p.135 (implied) “Because of the multitude, who cannot distinguish between matter and God, or see how great is the interval which lies between them, pray to idols made of matter, are we therefore, who do distinguish and separate the uncreated and the created, that which is and that which is not, that which is apprehended by the understanding and that which is perceived by the senses, and who give the fitting name to each of them, - are we to come and worship images? If, indeed, matter and God are the same, two names for one thing, then certainly, in not regarding stocks and stones, gold and silver, as gods, we are guilty of impiety. But if they are at the greatest possible remove from one another – as far asunder as the artist and the materials of his art, - why are we called to account.”

Melito of Sardis (170-177/180 A.D.) “There are, however, persons who say: It is for the honour of God that we make the image: in order, that is, that we may worship the God who is concealed from our view. But they are unaware that God is in every country, and in every place, and is never absent, and that there is not anything done and He knoweth it not. Yet thou, despicable man! within whom He is, and without whom He is, and above whom He is, hast nevertheless gone and bought thee wood from the carpenter’s, and it is carved and made into an image insulting to God. To this thou offerest sacrifice, and knowest not that the all-seeing eye seeth thee, and that the word of truth reproves thee, and says to thee: How can the unseen God be sculptured? Nay, it is the likeness of thyself that thou makest and worshippest. Because the wood has been sculptured, hast thou not the insight to perceive that it is still wood, or that the stone is still stone? The gold also the workman taketh according to its weight in the balance. And when thou hast had it made into an image, why dose thou weigh it? Therefore thou art a lover of gold, and not a lover of God.” Fragment 1 p.754

Melito of Sardis (170-177/180 A.D.) vol.8 ch.1 p.753 says we are to serve God and not images. He discusses this in more detail on p.755 saying that men are despicable who worship images.

 

[MCA]

Theophilus of Antioch (168-181/188 A.D.) quotes Exodus 20:3 “And concerning piety He [God] says, ‘Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I am the Lord thy God.’” Theophilus to Autolycus book 3 ch.9 p.114

Irenaeus of Lyons (182-188 A.D.) (partial, against images of Christ, but for Carpocratians) “They style themselves Gnostics. They [Carpocratians] also possess images, some of them painted, and others formed from different kinds of material; while they maintain that a likeness of Christ was made by Pilate at that time when Jesus lived among them. They crown these images, and set them up along with the images of the philosophers of the world that is to say, with the images of Pythagoras, and Plato, and Aristotle, and the rest. They have also other modes of honouring these images, after the same manner of the Gentiles [pagans]”. Irenaeus Against Heresies book 1 ch.25.6 p.351

Nontheless bowing down can have two word in greek for that: PROSKUNEO AND LATREIA. The first word proskuneo is done to even to the King David in the old testament without getting a rebuke for it. We have in the book of Revelation I think chapter 19 John doing proskuneo to an Angel and the Angel sayin: dont do this do proskuneo to God,

My take on this issue comes with the itention of bowing down, the heart matters.

On the hand with have Latreia (Only for relgious worship specially to God), No educated catholic would bowdown with Latreia to an Statue of Mary, not even with proskuneo in the sense that John did to the Angel in revelation. Catholic do what is called Hyperdulia to Mary a veneration higher than the other saints or angels but minor (not Latreia) than the one rendered to the Trinity.

Theologically the sin of idolatry its according the intention of heart. Not just the act.

Historically the veneration of images was a development in the church keeping in mind that theologically the veneration of an image has not to be idolatry per se.

Best regards,

Miguel

 

[Kindnessmatters]

The protestant argument is a misrepresentation of Catholicism. We worship only the holy Trinity…the Father, Son and Holy Spirit who are together one entity…God.

We believe that Mary and the angels and Saints can help deliver and act on God’s will to help us, and can intercede on our behalf to bring our concerns to the Lord. A prayer to Mary or the saints is as agents, messengers, helpers of God. We are monotheists…we believe in “One God” and “One Church” and attest to such regularly.

I pray daily. I always pray Our Father, Oh My Jesus and Glory Be…all directly to God. I pray the Hail Mary as well. I pray to the archangels, Raphael, Gabriel and Michael, and depending on my concerns, to other saints. For example, St. Thomas Becket and St. Jean Vianney are patron Saint for priests, and I pray to them to guide and protect good priests through difficult times. I pray in my own thoughts, words and by meditating on the rosary. All prayers are ultimately ordered toward God and any who would claim otherwise of my prayers simply are not being truthful.

We show reverence (respect) to sacred, blessed objects such as statues of Mary and the Saints. Reverence (respect) and worship are not the same thing. For example, were I to meet Queen Elizabeth, I would show her respect with a courtsey…if I were a man, I would bow. Of course, she is significant to the Church of England…a protestant church. Are we worshipping her? Of course not.

Often, people make things up about what others believe to bolster their different choice. Most of the loudest criticism of Catholicism takes issue with made up nonsense like that we worship that which we Revere, and not only Christ.

You will find in the Catholic Church, we are reverent generally but there is particular care, concern, love…worship…reserved for the Lord. When there is no mass, we will kneel and genuflect facing the altar entering and departing the nave because there are usually consecrated hosts in the tabernacle. You will see the candle at the tabernacle is never permitted to extinguish even when the church is empty. During mass, the focus is on the presence of the body and blood of Jesus in the preparation and service of communion. This, too, can properly be called worship.

 

[jf.1022]

“Moses went out to meet his father-in-law and bowed down and kissed him.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭18:7

I’m pretty sure Moses wouldn’t have included this if simply bowing down were wrong.

There is a lot to say about the first commandment but as far as this discussion goes there are two parts to Exodus 20:5, “You shall not bow down to them or serve them…” (ESV‬‬)

1. Bow down—as seen earlier this by itself only shows honor and Moses was never rebuked for bowing down to Jethro.
2. Serve (or worship) them—it should be noted that the Septuagint translates this as latreia which should be a familiar term to Catholics. It’s worship belonging only to God (G2999 Strong’s). Partially the purpose here is to prohibit worshiping/serving/sacrificing to the Canaanite gods in place or addition to the Lord. There is more to be said on this but it clearly is not making the point that honoring a creature made by God is by definition idolatry as shown in Exodus 18:7 and other passages which uses “bow down” (H7812) as pertaining to honor and not worship.

 

[drac16]

I believe that it is.

 

[MCA]

Read my long reply please

 

[jf.1022]

What you believe doesn’t matter, but what the truth is does matter.

 

[Heaveniswaiting]

Just remember that if it wasnt for Mary there would be no Jesus. Bowing down to her is honoring her as the Mother of God…also do you think Jesus would like it if you say you love Him and show him respect, but decide to not pay any respect to His mother
…I dunno just my thoughts.