Is Capitalism compatible with CST?

[ialsop]

Is capitalism compatible with Catholic Social Teaching? I am NOT talking about greed or poverty. Right now, I am asking if economic freedom is good. Is freedom likely to allow the spread of vices, or is freedom good for society?

 

[Deus_tecum]

I think it is compatible. When has CST ever advocated having government take money from people by force, and then redistribute it to others? In political forums I find that those who argue against capitalism always frame capitalism in an unregulated form, which is not what it ever is in civilized countries. For awhile there was a meme circulating that “capitalists should relocate to Somalia”. This was ridiculous, because at that time Somalia was a mixture of feudalism and anarchy.

 

[jinglebelle]

I think it is compatible. When has CST ever advocated having government take money from people by force, and then redistribute it to others? In political forums I find that those who argue against capitalism always frame capitalism in an unregulated form, which is not what it ever is in civilized countries. For awhile there was a meme circulating that “capitalists should relocate to Somalia”. This was ridiculous, because at that time Somalia was a mixture of feudalism and anarchy.

Last sentence, sounds a bit like England 2016

 

[Larryk113]

Is capitalism compatible with Catholic Social Teaching? I am NOT talking about greed or poverty. Right now, I am asking if economic freedom is good. Is freedom likely to allow the spread of vices, or is freedom good for society?

I think capitalism has created one of the greatest countrys in the world. Others always scream socialism but I have yet to see it work anywhere in the world. I think it creates opportunity for anyone that wants it.

 

[Regular_Atheist]

Capitalism is not economic freedom. Having to work for another person to survive who appropriates the majority of what you produce while you are paid a fraction is not economic freedom. Not to mention that capitalism in every form has had to rely on cheap labour at the expense of the worker, whether that’s the workhouse in London or the sweatshop in Bangladesh. Capitalism also by its very nature involves hierarchies that are maintained through force, so it is always unequal. You can’t have freedom while you have social and economic inequality.

 

[stinkcat_14]

Capitalism is not economic freedom.

Capitalism is economic freedom. A fundamental human right should be the right to start your own business. For example, if I want to buy a lawn mower and mow people’s lawns, why would anyone be against that? If I want to buy a snowplow and plow driveways in the winter, why should I not be free to do that?

Having to work for another person to survive who appropriates the majority of what you produce while you are paid a fraction is not economic freedom.

Can you give me an example of a firm that appropriates the majority of what people produce?

Not to mention that capitalism in every form has had to rely on cheap labour at the expense of the worker, whether that’s the workhouse in London or the sweatshop in Bangladesh. Capitalism also by its very nature involves hierarchies that are maintained through force, so it is always unequal. You can’t have freedom while you have social and economic inequality.

Can you give me an example of socialism that is not maintained by force?

 

[Aaron_I]

Capitalism is not economic freedom. Having to work for another person to survive who appropriates the majority of what you produce while you are paid a fraction is not economic freedom. Not to mention that capitalism in every form has had to rely on cheap labour at the expense of the worker, whether that’s the workhouse in London or the sweatshop in Bangladesh. Capitalism also by its very nature involves hierarchies that are maintained through force, so it is always unequal. You can’t have freedom while you have social and economic inequality.

I assure you there’s quite a bit of freedom in the USA today. Certainly much more than in any socialist regimen past or present. Do you agree or disagree?

 

[Regular_Atheist]

Capitalism is economic freedom. A fundamental human right should be the right to start your own business. For example, if I want to buy a lawn mower and mow people’s lawns, why would anyone be against that? If I want to buy a snowplow and plow driveways in the winter, why should I not be free to do that?

The problem with examples like this is that they obfuscate the actual social relations that exist under capitalism. There may have been a time where a lot of production was done by individuals who owned all of their own tools and their own workplace and sold the goods that they produced directly. However one significant economic development that paved the transition to capitalism was socialized labour - many people working together to produce goods. This is how the majority of goods are produced under capitalism. A workplace includes many people working together to produce goods which are then appropriated and sold by much fewer individuals, the owners of the workplace. Your examples are pretty inconsequential in the capitalist economy. Most businesses don’t involve one individual directly selling services.

Can you give me an example of a firm that appropriates the majority of what people produce?

All employees are paid less than the value of what they produce. If not there would be no reason to hire them.

Can you give me an example of socialism that is not maintained by force?

There would be no hierarchies maintained through force under socialism. It would be a free association of individuals with nobody having to work for another to survive.

I assure you there’s quite a bit of freedom in the USA today. Certainly much more than in any socialist regimen past or present. Do you agree or disagree?

There certainly isn’t economic freedom for anyone that doesn’t own capital.

Not to mention that the lifestyle that people in the First World have can’t really be maintained without exploiting cheap labour elsewhere, and the poor of the First World are generally ignored. Not everyone is middle class.

 

[Larryk113]

Most businesses don’t involve one individual directly selling services.

*I’m a home builder. I build a house and sell a house.
*
All employees are paid less than the value of what they produce. If not there would be no reason to hire them.
*
One must learn how to perform a certain task to move up. I started off picking up trash on a job site. If you want it, you can obtain it through capitalism period. *

There would be no hierarchies maintained through force under socialism. It would be a free association of individuals with nobody having to work for another to survive.

*I don’t mean to be ugly here but the idea of nobody having to work for another to survive, sounds to me like everyone is really poor.

I believe socialism is a stepping stone to communism. We know how well that plays out from history.*

 

[Monte_RCMS]

Capitalism is not economic freedom. Having to work for another person to survive who appropriates the majority of what you produce while you are paid a fraction is not economic freedom. Not to mention that capitalism in every form has had to rely on cheap labour at the expense of the worker, whether that’s the workhouse in London or the sweatshop in Bangladesh. Capitalism also by its very nature involves hierarchies that are maintained through force, so it is always unequal. You can’t have freedom while you have social and economic inequality.

True capitalism is voluntary association that creates mutual benefits without coercion.

For example, in the United States there used to be a shortage of natural gas which is used for heating fuel and also used as a building block for chemicals including plastics.

The Federal government had reduced the licensing terms to develop natural gas on Federal government lands. Because of the complexity of exploration and geology, it takes time to do the preliminary work but the leasing terms were too short to allow for exploration and study and then placing orders for production of the equipment.

So, what happened is that farmers were offered leasing terms that were beneficial and so the exploration and development were able to proceed on private property instead of on government land.

As a result, there was a huge increase in natural gas development and production. Capitalism at work. In addition, capitalism also resulted in the construction of pipelines that carried the natural gas to various markets.

There was no use of tax payer money and no use of socialism. All of the relationships were voluntary. If people declined to participate, they were bypassed. A tremendous amount of money flooded into the regions involved which created jobs and wealth. Local areas and small towns were revitalized. In addition, export markets were also developed. And shipments to foreign countries also grew by both pipeline and by ship.

In addition, because of the huge amount of production increase, the market price for natural gas dropped from about $15 to about $3. The time period was from approximately 2008 to 2015 … and is continuing.

As a result of the increase in natural gas production, companies were able to design, build, sell and produce gas turbine engines to generate electricity which replaced electricity formerly produced by burning coal.

There is ONE area of the United States that did not benefit from all of this development. In New England, local politicians refused to allow pipelines to be installed and also insisted on dependence on highly variable and undependable wind power while they also shut down nuclear power plants that had worked dependably for decades.

Here is a link to a series of articles that describe the development of natural gas by the private sector.

naturalgasnow.org/record-gas-production-record-consumption-game/

Record gas production record consumption

The link was received this morning. And opens to allow reading of daily articles.

One example of capitalism at work: … voluntary associations working without government coercion to provide benefits for all.

 

[mikekle]

Not to mention that the lifestyle that people in the First World have can’t really be maintained without exploiting cheap labour elsewhere

I think this says it best!!

I do not think this little fairy tale will last too long though, I mean, its only a matter of time before the factory owners in China where all this stuff is made, will catch on and realize they can do it even cheaper (for themselves) and sell it for the same exact price! (cutting out the small american business owner who had a good idea, having it mass produced in China, etc and then marking the retail price sky high for sale in the US)…well duh, anyone in the world can do that!

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Can you give me an example of socialism that is not maintained by force?

Unfair question. Every system of governance is maintained by force of some kind.

 

[PhantomPhanatic]

Hello!

A couple of quotes from the Church to address your question - my understanding is that the Catholic Church is opposed to both pure capitalism as well as pure socialism. The Church has always taught a balance of subsidiarity and solidarity - that governments must be involved in directing economic activity so that the needs of the poor are taken care of, but not so much so that private charity is overriden. Couple of quotes:

“[The Catholic Church] has refused to accept, in the practice of “capitalism,” individualism and the absolute primacy of the law of the marketplace over human labor.” ~ Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2425

“In this context, some people continue to defend trickle-down theories which assume that economic growth, encouraged by a free market, will inevitably succeed in bringing about greater justice and inclusiveness in the world. This opinion, which has never been confirmed by the facts, expresses a crude and naïve trust in the goodness of those wielding economic power and in the sacralized workings of the prevailing economic system. Meanwhile, the excluded are still waiting.” ~ Pope Francis

“It is the task of the State to provide for the defense and preservation of common goods, which cannot be safeguarded simply by market forces.” ~ Pope John Paul II

“Those responsible for business enterprises are responsible to society. They have an obligation to consider the good of persons and not only the increase of profits.” ~ Catechism of the Catholic Church, #2432

“Humans can fully discover their true self only in a sincere giving of themselves by committing their own freedom to the common good, beyond individual or group interests and far from the search for profit at all cost.” ~ Pope John Paul II

“There exist certain sectors in which the market, making use of the mechanisms at its disposal, is not able to guarantee an equitable distribution of the goods and services that are essential for the human growth of citizens. In such cases the complementarities of State and market are needed more than ever.” ~ Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Catholic Church, 353

“Once profit becomes the exclusive goal, if it is produced by improper means and without the common good as its ultimate end, it risks destroying wealth and creating poverty.” ~ Pope Benedict XVI

“Side by side with the miseries of underdevelopment, we find ourselves up against a form of super-development which consists of an excessive availability of every kind of material good for some, makes people slaves of ‘possessions’ and of immediate gratification, with no other hope than the multiplication or continual replacement of things with something better” ~ Pope John Paul II

 

[PhantomPhanatic]

Couple more quotes…

“Special interests and the demands of the market frequently predominate over concern for the common good. Thus, globalization exacerbates the conditions of the needy, does not sufficiently contribute to resolving situations of hunger, poverty and social inequality, and fails to safeguard the natural environment. These aspects of globalization can give rise to extreme reactions, leading to excessive nationalism, religious fanaticism and even acts of terrorism.” ~ Pope John Paul II

“God gave the earth to the whole human race for the sustenance of all its members, without excluding or favoring anyone. The right to the common use of goods is the first principle of the whole ethical and social order and the characteristic principle of Catholic social doctrine.” ~ Pope John Paul II

“A ‘universal’ vision of the common good demands this: we need to broaden our gaze to embrace the needs of the entire human family. The phenomenon of globalization itself calls for openness and sharing, if it is not to be a source of exclusion and marginalization, but rather a basis for solidarity and the sharing of all in the production and exchange of goods.” ~ Pope John Paul II

“It is necessary to break down the barriers and monopolies which leave so many countries on the margins of development, and to provide all individuals and nations with the basic conditions which will enable them to share in development. This goal calls for programmed and responsible efforts on the part of the entire international community.” ~ Pope John Paul II

“Globalization gives rise to new hopes while at the same time it poses troubling questions. Looking after the common good means making use of the new opportunities for the redistribution of wealth among the different areas of the planet, to the benefit of the underprivileged that until now have been excluded or cast to the sidelines of social and economic progress. The challenge, in short, is to ensure a globalization in solidarity, a globalization without marginalization. This technological progress itself risks being unfairly distributed among countries.” ~ Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Catholic Church

“Tax revenues and public spending take on crucial economic importance for every civil and political community. The goal to be sought is public financing that is itself capable of becoming an instrument of development and solidarity. Just, efficient and effective public financing will have very positive effects on the economy, because it will encourage employment growth and sustain business and non-profit activities and help to increase the credibility of the State as the guarantor of systems of social insurance and protection that are designed above all to protect the weakest members of society. Public spending is directed to the common good when certain fundamental principles are observed: the payment of taxes as part of the duty of solidarity; a reasonable and fair application of taxes; precision and integrity in administering and distributing public resources. In the redistribution of resources, public spending must observe the principles of solidarity, equality and making use of talents. It must also pay greater attention to families, designating an adequate amount of resources for this purpose.” ~ Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Catholic Church, 355

“In a system of taxation based on justice and equity it is fundamental that the burdens be proportioned to the capacity of the people contributing” ~ Pope John XXIII

Hope that is helpful! God Bless

 

[hu324b]

• VI. LOVE FOR THE POOR

2443 God blesses those who come to the aid of the poor and rebukes those who turn away from them: “Give to him who begs from you, do not refuse him who would borrow from you”; "you received without pay, give without pay."232 It is by what they have done for the poor that Jesus Christ will recognize his chosen ones.233 When “the poor have the good news preached to them,” it is the sign of Christ’s presence.234

2444 “The Church’s love for the poor . . . is a part of her constant tradition.” This love is inspired by the Gospel of the Beatitudes, of the poverty of Jesus, and of his concern for the poor.235 Love for the poor is even one of the motives for the duty of working so as to "be able to give to those in need."236 It extends not only to material poverty but also to the many forms of cultural and religious poverty.237

2445 Love for the poor is incompatible with immoderate love of riches or their selfish use:

Come now, you rich, weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted and your garments are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver have rusted, and their rust will be evidence against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasure for the last days. Behold, the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, cry out; and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts. You have lived on the earth in luxury and in pleasure; you have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter. You have condemned, you have killed the righteous man; he does not resist you.238

2446 St. John Chrysostom vigorously recalls this: "Not to enable the poor to share in our goods is to steal from them and deprive them of life. The goods we possess are not ours, but theirs."239 “The demands of justice must be satisfied first of all; that which is already due in justice is not to be offered as a gift of charity”:240

When we attend to the needs of those in want, we give them what is theirs, not ours. More than performing works of mercy, we are paying a debt of justice.241

2447 The works of mercy are charitable actions by which we come to the aid of our neighbor in his spiritual and bodily necessities.242 Instructing, advising, consoling, comforting are spiritual works of mercy, as are forgiving and bearing wrongs patiently. The corporal works of mercy consist especially in feeding the hungry, sheltering the homeless, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and imprisoned, and burying the dead.243 Among all these, giving alms to the poor is one of the chief witnesses to fraternal charity: it is also a work of justice pleasing to God:244

He who has two coats, let him share with him who has none and he who has food must do likewise.245 But give for alms those things which are within; and behold, everything is clean for you.246 If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit?247

2448 "In its various forms - material deprivation, unjust oppression, physical and psychological illness and death - human misery is the obvious sign of the inherited condition of frailty and need for salvation in which man finds himself as a consequence of original sin. This misery elicited the compassion of Christ the Savior, who willingly took it upon himself and identified himself with the least of his brethren. Hence, those who are oppressed by poverty are the object of a preferential love on the part of the Church which, since her origin and in spite of the failings of many of her members, has not ceased to work for their relief, defense, and liberation through numerous works of charity which remain indispensable always and everywhere."248

2449 Beginning with the Old Testament, all kinds of juridical measures (the jubilee year of forgiveness of debts, prohibition of loans at interest and the keeping of collateral, the obligation to tithe, the daily payment of the day-laborer, the right to glean vines and fields) answer the exhortation of Deuteronomy: "For the poor will never cease out of the land; therefore I command you, ‘You shall open wide your hand to your brother, to the needy and to the poor in the land.’"249 Jesus makes these words his own: "The poor you always have with you, but you do not always have me."250 In so doing he does not soften the vehemence of former oracles against “buying the poor for silver and the needy for a pair of sandals . . .,” but invites us to recognize his own presence in the poor who are his brethren:251
When her mother reproached her for caring for the poor and the sick at home, St. Rose of Lima said to her: "When we serve the poor and the sick, we serve Jesus. We must not fail to help our neighbors, because in them we serve Jesus.252

 

[Wesrock]

If it’s the best way to ensure that goods reach those they need to go to, then yes.

 

[styrgwillidar]

capitalism- yes.

cronyism - no.

Inevitably both ‘capitalist’ and ‘socialist’ actually become cronyism. Those in power using that power to enrich themselves and their friends.

Be it Maduro and his folks in Venezuela or (pick the politician of your choice in the US or UK…) the folks at the top use their positions to enrich themselves and their compadres.

 

[mo3]

Socialism devolves to produce greedy big government bureaucrats and their crony business friends that dishonestly tax and regulate the poor and middle class. Only the relatively few dishonest bigshots at the top benefit.

American Capitalism in conjunction with the US Constitution has proven to be the best economic system in the history of humankind to care for the poor. The further we move away from American Capitalism / US Constitution, the greater the poverty.

The bigger the government, the smaller the person. The bigger the government, the smaller the church.

Socialism produces intrinsically evil outcomes. Therefore, socialism is evil.

 

[mo3]

Inevitably both ‘capitalist’ and ‘socialist’ actually become cronyism.

Capitalism may have some cronyism but only because there are dishonest government bureaucrats. The common denominator is not capitalism but a dishonest government bureaucrat. The more capitalism devolves into socialism, the more cronyism that occurs.

 

[stinkcat_14]

Capitalism may have some cronyism but only because there are dishonest government bureaucrats. The common denominator is not capitalism but a dishonest government bureaucrat. The more capitalism devolves into socialism, the more cronyism that occurs.

crony capitalism occurs because of both dishonest government bureaucrats and dishonest capitalists. Think of the taxi industry. The reason it is crony capitalism is because the taxi industry lobbied the government to get regulations passed that benefit them. If they had more ethics, we would have more competition in the taxi industry.