Is Catholicism the Oldest Christian Religion?

[Mickey]

It is also the reason Catholics should refuse to accept the words of any member that “The Church” is higher than the word of god.

Catholics will tell you that Christ is the Head of the Church…and He is the Word made flesh. So…what are you talking about?

If we to accept the notion that a child who is a victim of sexual abuse by a priest have their voice of retribution squashed because they should obey the Church leaders then of course serious damage is going to be done in the name of evil.

That is a really uncharitable thing for you to say. You attack the Catholic Church by using examples of sinners within the Church walls. Shame on you.

 

[Vico]

I’m not necessarily disagreeing with you here but can I ask you if the following is a better way of expressing what you have said.

I say this because it comes across as being hypocritical that a person would say it “is good to follow what the church teaches” when we are specifically talking and quoting about the jewish tradition from a Christian perspective which does not endorse the Jewish “church”. From that perspective the Christian church has no endorsement. In fact it could be stated that the Christian church in fact was born (through Paul at least) from the complete separation of the Jewish church which completely defeats your own argumentation. If it was otherwise then it could be said that Judaism is the oldest Christian religion… Which is a worthwhile argument and maybe one we should also look at later.

I think rather than the word Church you are trying to say is…

It is good to follow the word of god which is passed down into law. ie. the commandments, the most notable being, love god with all your heart.

I would argue strongly and with good reference that the “word” so often spoken of in the bible is the word of god and that word is supreme above all commandments, which is exactly what Jesus says and also say when Abraham is tested to kill Isaac.

Here the word of god is supreme, a living entity which can speak directly to the hearts of man.

Secondly, the commandments are to be followed.

Thirdly, the prophets or spokespersons in whatever form, like moses, david, jesus etc… Jesus says quite clearly “why call me good? Only the father in heaven is good”

Fourth is to take from the scriptures. Among them are the words of god as espoused by leaders but also we know especially in the New testament that the Chapters chose were of men such as various bishops at councils but not directly by God. (we assume each bishop used his own prayers to come to his conclusion but we have also concluded that members of the church are also corruptible)

Fifth and last is to obey church leaders, or in respect to how we are defining it here (because it has many definitions), “The Church” as a political representation and authoritative spokesperson for it’s own set of values working within a system that is not perfect, can be penetrated by “evil” and can be corruptible. This is why Jesus threw down the money changers table in the temple.

It is also the reason Catholics should refuse to accept the words of any member that “The Church” is higher than the word of god. The main reason i say this is you can inadvertently support the wolfs in sheep’s clothing which can infiltrate or be infiltrated.

And we see this problem continually occurring within the Church. If we to accept the notion that a child who is a victim of sexual abuse by a priest have their voice of retribution squashed because they should obey the Church leaders then of course serious damage is going to be done in the name of evil. It doesn’t just stop there and i’m sure all members see other forms of this problematic dilemma, but it is an example of the most horrid outcomes.

The institution of the church is therefore imperfect because it does not have a system whereby evil cannot penetrate its ranks, and as we have seen it can in fact harbor evil.

The church has a value, that is not in disagreement, but that value should be set in its proper perspective lest you be a supporter of evil itself of which no man on earth or man made system can redeem you.

Have i got this right in a holistic approach to both the new and old testaments, or am i missing something?

I do intend “taught by the Church” (capital). And we knew that the Church of Christ is not higher than God but is the Body of Christ, and Christ is the head of his Church. (Ephesians 1:22-23). For Judiasm, the Chief Priests (esp. Annas and Caiaphas) and Pharisees were authority for Judiasm (see John 18 for example) and taught properly, however many were hypocrites.

“As a religion, Judaism is the body of a permanent moral tradition, which has its roots in the Old Testament prophets, and its hopes in a forthcoming Messiah.” - Modern Catholic Dictionary therealpresence.org/cgi-bin/getdefinition.pl

The Church of Christ is infallible in doctrine and morals promulgated as the faith, even though members of the Church of Christ fail to be clothed in Christ.

I would not say that to support the Church is to support evil because members of the Church are not living the faith.

 

[pgnat1]

Hah, Protestantism sure ain’t the oldest, that’s for sure…

 

[thinkoutsidethe]

Catholics will tell you that Christ is the Head of the Church…and He is the Word made flesh. So…what are you talking about?

Yes, you are correct. I think what i meant was to be more clear, the word of christ reigns supreme over church leaders such as popes and the interpretation is in ones heart which reign supreme over the interpretation of church leaders as in accordance with jesus teachings. The kingdom of heaven therefore is different from the kingdom of men and the two cannot correlate and are at odds with each other, which is Jesus’ key message. If indeed the two can correlate, it is to realize power and money or group consensus are not the values of heaven… Further, that a heavenly kingdom is not about succession, stone buildings or who came first as clearly put into the parable of the two sons. The kingdom of heaven resides to all who are ready to receive it.

That is a really uncharitable thing for you to say. You attack the Catholic Church by using examples of sinners within the Church walls. Shame on you.

I think a personal attack is a sign of weakness and exactly what put Christ on the cross when the Pharasee cannot win arguments based on theological truth. I do not attack the Catholic church at all. I agree with Jesus who you call the head of the church on your first point (so as you may not be in disagreement lest Hippocratic) that the church is not the important thing in knowing god, the father, but rather it is a persons relationship with god that counts as more high.

I am not shamed nor have guilt because I have not succumbed my personal relationship with god to that of a group and therefore do not care whether I am shamed or not. That is specifically held for people in religious orders and if we go back to the example of pedophilia within the church, is the very thing placed upon children to make them not have a voice in speaking up about it. That is the true evil about it all. Not that despicable acts have taken place, as pedophilia is not confined to Catholicism, but rather that children are shamed into not speaking out in order to safeguard the reputation of the Church. This causes long term damage not only to Catholicism but to society as a whole as the burden has to be had for all. Like Pontius Pilate, you cannot just wipe your hands clean of it.

That you would try and shame myself who is just speaking the truth on a matter of severe evil, you neglect to throw shame on those very sinners of the highest order, of which we presume you do because of your need to safeguard the bastion of your world view.

Thank you for being a living example of exactly what i am saying.

So in coming back yo your first point about the head of the church which i hope you suffer no disagreement:

Matthew 18:2-6
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. “Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me, but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

It is not the pedophile who causes the child to sin but rather those who shame the victims into not speaking about the sin which has been released upon them; the very act of shame itself.

As such it is a discussion of pride, religious pride, which causes one to argue over who has the first church, which is the rightful church or such things, which in turn causes great ‘uncharitable’ harm. Charity is to protect the innocent, not the other way around. Charity is an act, not a propaganda tool.

Matthew 6:1-4
"Be careful not to do your ‘acts of righteousness’ before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. "So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Reiterating, the Catholic church has a purpose, i am not attacking it. Just I am saying, know your place.

 

[Mickey]

I think what i meant was to be more clear, the word of christ reigns supreme over church leaders

Those early Church leaders compiled the books of the New Testament.

and the interpretation is in ones heart

The interpretation comes from the Fathers and Councils of the Church…including those who compiled the Sacred Scriptures. If the interpretations were to come from each and every individual…there would be thousands of different interpretations and this would lead to a multitude of splinterings into various “churches” which held to the differing interpretations.

Er…wait…that already happened.

The kingdom of heaven therefore is different from the kingdom of men and the two cannot correlate and are at odds with each other

Heaven and Earth meet in the Church at each and every Divine Liturgy.

Further, that a heavenly kingdom is not about succession, stone buildings or who came first

I think I will follow the succession of the apostles as opposed to what you may be trying to say. Also, the Church is the pillar and ground of truth.

I do not attack the Catholic church at all.

It seems that you are.

the church is not the important thing in knowing god, the father, but rather it is a persons relationship with god that counts as more high.

Christ is the Head of the Church. The Church (with Christ as the Head) leads us into a relationship with the Holy Trinity through Scripture, Sacred Tradition and the Holy Sacraments.

That is specifically held for people in religious orders and if we go back to the example of pedophilia within the church,

This is the third or fourth time you have attempted to attack the Catholic Church using the example of pedophilia.

Shame on you.

That you would try and shame myself who is just speaking the truth on a matter of severe evil, you neglect to throw shame on those very sinners of the highest order, of which we presume you do because of your need to safeguard the bastion of your world view.

You are attempting to use an example of sinful human beings within the Catholic Church to further your campaign of calumny against the Catholic Church in an effort to “safeguard the bastion of your world view.”

Thank you for being a living example of exactly what i am saying.

On the contrary. Your posts are a living example of unrighteous judgment and attack methods.

Matthew 18:2-6
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. “Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me, but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea. This is a wonderful Scripture about the necessity of the sacrament of infant baptism for Christ’s little ones.

As such it is a discussion of pride, religious pride,

Yes. This is what I see eminating from your posts.

Reiterating, the Catholic church has a purpose, i am not attacking it.

I think that you are.

 

[thinkoutsidethe]

The Church of Christ is infallible in doctrine and morals promulgated as the faith, even though members of the Church of Christ fail to be clothed in Christ.

If a doctrine is infallible then evil cannot touch it, which is exactly my point.

The reason why Satan cannot infiltrate Jesus such as in the desert is because his doctrine is solid. It is not just doctrine, because doctrine is in the the realms of man. As such it is a guiding force. But rather, unlike the Pharisee, it is doctrine adhered to in action as well as words. As such we can say for certain that Jesus’s doctrine is infallible. However, Catholic doctrine goes outside of Jesus’s doctrine, adding more, such as doctrines imposed by Paul and early other bishops who’s actions, say like, where Paul approves of stoning Stephen, are in deep contrast to Jesus’s teachings, and have been utilized in order to create some of the most evil acts known to modern humanity.

As such doctrine is liable to misinterpretation. This misinterpretation or maybe a better word is misrepresentation, is what makes doctrine in itself fallible. Exactly as you rightly point out about the Pharisee, saying one thing and doing another. And it could be surmised that Catholics and Pharasee can be interchangeable in some respects on this point.

It is here that Pope John Paul 2 did what no other pope before him having the ability to do in the Jubalee of forgivness:

Merciful Father,
on the night before his Passion
your Son prayed for the unity of those who believe in him:
in disobedience to his will, however,
believers have opposed one another, becoming divided,
and have mutually condemned one another and fought against one another.
We urgently implore your forgiveness
and we beseech the gift of a repentant heart,
so that all Christians, reconciled with you and with one another
will be able, in one body and in one spirit,
to experience anew the joy of full communion.
We ask this through Christ our Lord.

That is admitting to the sins of the church (as a membership) over time and asking for forgiveness. Now when we forgive someone we do so in recognition of their wrongs and that those wrongs will not be repeated.

Let us pray that contemplating Jesus,
our Lord and our Peace,
Christians will be able to repent of the words and attitudes
caused by pride, by hatred,
by the desire to dominate others,
by enmity towards members of other religions
and towards the weakest groups in society,
such as immigrants and itinerantes

God, our Father,
you always bear the cry of the poor.
How many times have Christians themselves not recognized you
in the hungry, the thirsty and the naked,
in the persecuted, the imprisoned,
and in those incapable of defending themselves,
especially in the first stages of life.
For all those who bave committed acts of injustice
by trusting in wealth and power
and showing contempt for the “little ones”
who are so dear to you, we ask your fogiveness:
have mercy on us and accept our repentance.
We ask this through Christ our Lord.

These are the reasons why the voice of god who resides in all our hearts, Catholic or not, is higher than any specific doctrine (children for example know not doctrine- yet are held by Jesus as the highest) because doctrine itself is open to interpretation and can be a tool of harm by a collective or membership of a Church.

Further many great evil deeds could have been alleviated if in fact Catholics had followed this simple doctrine rather than the words of Church leader. For if a evil person or a pedophile was in your midst, god would let your heart know.

 

[thinkoutsidethe]

Those early Church leaders compiled the books of the New Testament.

and…? Do you raise a point other than determining religious dogma?

The interpretation comes from the Fathers and Councils of the Church…including those who compiled the Sacred Scriptures. If the interpretations were to come from each and every individual…there would be thousands of different interpretations and this would lead to a multitude of splinterings into various “churches” which held to the differing interpretations.

Er…wait…that already happened.

And as you have confessed and not in argument so far by anyone is that the church can be infiltrated by sinners…? So? Can we say at least is none of those “council” members have been able to behave as Christ himself? Which is the essence of my point.

Heaven and Earth meet in the Church at each and every Divine Liturgy.

and Jesus says this where?

Christ is the Head of the Church. The Church (with Christ as the Head) leads us into a relationship with the Holy Trinity through Scripture, Sacred Tradition and the Holy Sacraments.

Quotes please.

This is the third or fourth time you have attempted to attack the Catholic Church using the example of pedophilia.

Shame on you.

I am not attacking the church. I am attacking its proneness towards ignorance when dwelt in pride of its members. Individual members such as yourself who speak on its behalf yet admit they do not have value to their own heart to that over doctrine. Although i would say you are a rarity i hope.

You are attempting to use an example of sinful human beings within the Catholic Church to further your campaign of calumny against the Catholic Church in an effort to “safeguard the bastion of your world view.”

.How am i doing this? Neither will you accept that is not what i am doing by my own admission nor give any clear idea to how I am doing this. I really don’t understand by raising the important problem within your church how i am attacking it? Wouldn’t you be more concerned with how these evils might be stopped? I feel sick even discussing safeguarding a Church for the sake of child rape. I can’t believe I am even attempting to argue this case. It’s evil. End of story. I’ll bare my shame and let you bare yours.

"Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name.
Your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil."

Mark 7:5-7 He answered and said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: ‘This people honors Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’

 

[Vico]

If a doctrine is infallible then evil cannot touch it, which is exactly my point.

The reason why Satan cannot infiltrate Jesus such as in the desert is because his doctrine is solid. It is not just doctrine, because doctrine is in the the realms of man. As such it is a guiding force. But rather, unlike the Pharisee, it is doctrine adhered to in action as well as words. As such we can say for certain that Jesus’s doctrine is infallible. However, Catholic doctrine goes outside of Jesus’s doctrine, adding more, such as doctrines imposed by Paul and early other bishops who’s actions, say like, where Paul approves of stoning Stephen, are in deep contrast to Jesus’s teachings, and have been utilized in order to create some of the most evil acts known to modern humanity.

As such doctrine is liable to misinterpretation. This misinterpretation or maybe a better word is misrepresentation, is what makes doctrine in itself fallible. Exactly as you rightly point out about the Pharisee, saying one thing and doing another. And it could be surmised that Catholics and Pharasee can be interchangeable in some respects on this point.

It is here that Pope John Paul 2 did what no other pope before him having the ability to do in the Jubalee of forgivness:

Merciful Father,
on the night before his Passion
your Son prayed for the unity of those who believe in him:
in disobedience to his will, however,
believers have opposed one another, becoming divided,
and have mutually condemned one another and fought against one another.
We urgently implore your forgiveness
and we beseech the gift of a repentant heart,
so that all Christians, reconciled with you and with one another
will be able, in one body and in one spirit,
to experience anew the joy of full communion.
We ask this through Christ our Lord.

That is admitting to the sins of the church (as a membership) over time and asking for forgiveness. Now when we forgive someone we do so in recognition of their wrongs and that those wrongs will not be repeated.

Let us pray that contemplating Jesus,
our Lord and our Peace,
Christians will be able to repent of the words and attitudes
caused by pride, by hatred,
by the desire to dominate others,
by enmity towards members of other religions
and towards the weakest groups in society,
such as immigrants and itinerantes

God, our Father,
you always bear the cry of the poor.
How many times have Christians themselves not recognized you
in the hungry, the thirsty and the naked,
in the persecuted, the imprisoned,
and in those incapable of defending themselves,
especially in the first stages of life.
For all those who [h]-]b/-]ave committed acts of injustice
by trusting in wealth and power
and showing contempt for the “little ones”
who are so dear to you, we ask your fo[r]giveness:
have mercy on us and accept our repentance.
We ask this through Christ our Lord.

These are the reasons why the voice of god who resides in all our hearts, Catholic or not, is higher than any specific doctrine (children for example know not doctrine- yet are held by Jesus as the highest) because doctrine itself is open to interpretation and can be a tool of harm by a collective or membership of a Church.

Further many great evil deeds could have been alleviated if in fact Catholics had followed this simple doctrine rather than the words of Church leader. For if a evil person or a pedophile was in your midst, god would let your heart know.

The dogmas of faith are a teaching of the faith to be believed, which is part of living the faith, and not all dogmas are infallible. There can be no confusing the concept of dogma with the sanctify of an individual; the latter is a matter of our cooperation with the Holy Spirit. Because of our human weakness we often pray: “Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on me a sinner!” The Christian may or may not perceive the infallible dogmas in their conscience. Yet, every baptized Christian is made capable of cooperating with the Holy Spirit, in addition to what any human may do. CCC 2513 “… Concupiscence stems from the disobedience of the first sin. It unsettles man’s moral faculties and, without being in itself an offense, inclines man to commit sins.”) The discrimination is not always developed so a person may not be aware of what is morally wrong. This is a complex matter and is why culpability is a complex subject.

 

[thinkoutsidethe]

The dogmas of faith are a teaching of the faith to be believed, which is part of living the faith, and not all dogmas are infallible. There can be no confusing the concept of dogma with the sanctify of an individual; the latter is a matter of our cooperation with the Holy Spirit. Because of our human weakness we often pray: “Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on me a sinner!” The Christian may or may not perceive the infallible dogmas in their conscience. Yet, every baptized Christian is made capable of cooperating with the Holy Spirit, in addition to what any human may do. CCC 2513 “… Concupiscence stems from the disobedience of the first sin. It unsettles man’s moral faculties and, without being in itself an offense, inclines man to commit sins.”) The discrimination is not always developed so a person may not be aware of what is morally wrong. This is a complex matter and is why culpability is a complex subject.

Well in such a case as people who have knowledge such as yours, the Church is doing a good job if it can impart that onto its membership. Keep up the good work.