Is denying the existence of a marriage declared null proper or immoral?

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faithhopelove

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Not sure if this is the right forum, but here it goes…

An annulment process is underway for my marriage. My ex-husband (I say ex because civily we are no longer married) has told me that he plans on stating that he has never been married if and when our marriage is declared null. (He also intends to never inform a future wife of my existence; he believes she would prefer that, as that is what he would prefer (ie that he never be informed of any previous relationship)). Although I fully agree with the church’s position that once declared null, the marriage is now assumed to have never existed, it seems to me to be dishonest to say that “I was never married” or not tell a future spouse that at one time I believed myself to be married, etc.

What do you think is the appropriate response to the question of have you been married if the marriage has been declared null? It is dishonest to say that you are single and not mention the previous relationship/marriage?
 
I seriously doubt your husband could get away with not telling his future wife. On any application you are required to declare any previous marriages and I’m pretty sure if get’s married in the church any decrees of nullity would be have to be declared as well.

If it is a an aquaintance stopping at I’m single would be ok and probably appropriate. But if this is someone you plan on dating I think it would be dishonest not to state you had a previous marriage declared null.
 
I did mean on any marriage application in case that wasn’t clear. Oops.
 
Having a marriage declared “null” is merely a statement made by the diocesene marriage tribunal (composed of clergy and canonical lawyers) that the Sacrament of Marraige was not a valid sacramental marriage. (I’m not going to get into the canonical reasons here).

You’re ex is fooling himself if he thinks he can go around saying that he was never married, or mentioning to other women that he was always single. But I really wouldn’t worry about him. Truth always comes back to bite you in the end!

Prayers to You!
Tonks40
 
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faithhopelove:
Not sure if this is the right forum, but here it goes…

An annulment process is underway for my marriage. My ex-husband (I say ex because civily we are no longer married) has told me that he plans on stating that he has never been married if and when our marriage is declared null. (He also intends to never inform a future wife of my existence; he believes she would prefer that, as that is what he would prefer (ie that he never be informed of any previous relationship)). Although I fully agree with the church’s position that once declared null, the marriage is now assumed to have never existed, it seems to me to be dishonest to say that “I was never married” or not tell a future spouse that at one time I believed myself to be married, etc.

What do you think is the appropriate response to the question of have you been married if the marriage has been declared null? It is dishonest to say that you are single and not mention the previous relationship/marriage?
An appropriate response to someone who may have a right to know, or someone you might be comfortable sharing the truth with, would be to sy that you have been married, you were divorced, and the Church declared that it was a natural marriage insted of a scramental marriage.

You don’t owe most people the gory details. It can’ however, be an opportunity to evangelize. Not as in getting up on a soap box, but as in what it has done to your relationship with God and the Church.

As to your ex, perhaps the best response of all is “Oh.” Not with one of those tones of voices, but just a simple “oh”. What he does from this point forward you have no control over (as if you ever did have control) and the best way to come to peace with him and the past is to let it go. “Oh” is purposely non-interactive, which is an excellent step to take.

By the way, your statement that the church’s position that the marriage never existed is mixing up civil annulments with Church annulments. The Church’s position is not that the marriage never existed, but rather that it was only a civil marriage, not a sacramental or covenent marriage.

A civil annulment is a statement by a court of law that the marriage did not exist.
 
I think I read a Miss Manners or some such that said one could socially claim to have not have had a previous marriage if it was annulled (in the church or legally).
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One runs into logistical problems, though, if the marriage lasted for any length of time. People will remember. And the internet will most likely not be so kind… (Especially when they can often times find a divorce decree online, trace the ownership of a house, etc)

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_6_2v.gif

However, mere social aquiantances and a future spouse fall into two different categories. The future spouse should know about any previous relationships of consequence, and a wedding ceremony is definitely serious enough to merit discussion. (You might be interested in this thread.)
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In response to what should your answer be, it depends on who asks and what they are really asking.

If a guy is asking if you are single (like trying to pick you up at a bar) and does so by asking if you are married, the response, “No, I’m single. And you?” or “I’m sorry. I’m not on the market.” would be proper responses that answer what is asked but avoids the actual history.

If a bank clerk wants to know if you should be given the spiel about surviving spouse benefits and asks if you are married, a simple, “No.” will suffice.

If a neighbor is chatting, a simple, “No, I’m not married.” is enough. If they then go on to ask if you ever have been, if you don’t want to answer, you can avoid it: “Mr. Right hasn’t made his way into my life yet.” or “So much about my relationship status… it makes me have flashbacks to my great aunt Mildred! (Ha ha ha…) One day I hope to be married. How did you and your husband meet?”

If it is just a nosy busy-body, the response should be, “Why do you ask?” A blank look, then an, “Oh.” should follow any stupid response like, “I’m just curious.” You can then steer the conversation to something more appropriate: “I’m curious, when is the last time you had sex with your husband?” or “I won’t ask about your sex life if you don’t ask about mine.” or “I don’t discuss my relationships.” (if you want to, you can lighten that with a joke… “Don’t want to jinx it, you know? (ha ha ha)” or “One too many blind dates!”)

Of course, the blanket, “I’m open to whatever God has in store for me! I’ve been so blessed!” is always a good one to keep in the pocket.

Any serious marriage potential should get the straight scoop, of course. “I was married, but it was annulled.”
 
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faithhopelove:
An annulment process is underway for my marriage. My ex-husband (I say ex because civily we are no longer married) has told me that he plans on stating that he has never been married if and when our marriage is declared null. . . . What do you think is the appropriate response to the question of have you been married if the marriage has been declared null? It is dishonest to say that you are single and not mention the previous relationship/marriage
As noted already, unless the person as a seriously potential spouse has a right to know more, you need not say much to the casual inquirer who knows you were married. It could be a simple as, “Although I was married before, a process of the Catholic Church has determined I am free to marry again. A Catholic priest or deacon could explain that process to you, if you are interested.” Also as noted, you are free to enter into a deeper discussion at your own discretion, as in a case of evangelizing. The other posters have treated other situations rather well, I think. Stay out of bars, though.

Let me address your ex’s view though.

The concealment of a prior marriage from a potential spouse, even though determined to be invalid, has moral and maybe canonical implications. If he seeks to marry again in the Church, the prior marriage and decree of nullity will be evidenced on the annotated baptismal certificate. Many civil jurisdictions ask for and then identify the number of times a person was previously married on their licenses, applications, or certificates.

But evaluating the prospect of marriage, which is a partnership of the whole of life, requires truthful self-revelation by both parties who contemplate it. Withholding information about one’s past in such an important aspect of life to a potential spouse undermines trust, justice and discernment. Further, assuming what another person wants, because we ourselves want something, is not reflective of the kinds of communication skills needed for the proper deliberation of marriage.

Sometimes, withholding this kind of information is used as a circumstantial proof in evaluating whether someone lacked due discretion and consequently gave invalid matrimonial consent (canon 1095, 2º). There are also certain grounds of error, fraud, and conditional consent (canons 1097-1098 and canon 1102) in which this could be a major issue in a nullity trial. Concealing a prior marriage has been the basis for nullity at the Roman Rota, in light of total proofs, more than once.
. . . and the Church declared that it was a natural marriage insted of a scramental marriage. . . . The Church’s position is not that the marriage never existed, but rather that it was only a civil marriage, not a sacramental or covenent marriage.
Describing what a decree of nullity is hard for everyone. May I give my preference and reasons here?

“A decree of nullity is a declaration that a given marriage was not valid according to divine law or Church law.” To avoid verbal gynmastics, I recommend avoiding making any distinctions beyond that point. All marriages involve the matrimonial covenant, so they are all “convenant marriages.” All marriages are governed by natural law, and hence all are “natural marriages,” but the term is not in the code nor is it used in canonical discussion though.

However, marriage between the baptized is also a sacrament, so only in such a case would we speak of “sacramental marriage.” A decree of nullity does not declare in any way that such a marriage was a “natural marriage” as opposed to a “sacramental marriage.” It only means the marriage was invalid, period. If it was invalid, consequently it was not a sacrament either.

The marriage involving at least one unbaptized person is not a sacramental marriage, although it is also a matrimonial covenant. The 1983 code does not give us a title for this, but canon 1015 §3 of the 1917 code called a validly celebrated marriage of the unbaptized a “legitimate marriage” (matrimonium legitimum). To avoid confusion and maybe ruffled feathers, I wouldn’t use this term outside of a legal discussion. Canonists use it to describe a mariage in which at least one party in a validly celebrated marriage was unbaptized.

One advantage of not going too far is that we don’t foster the misconception that non “sacramental marriages” don’t require decrees of nullity (or privilege of the faith) in order for either or both of the parties to marry in the Catholic Church following divorce. You’ve probably heard it too, “but they were Protestants/Hindus, etc., so he/she doesn’t need an ‘annulment’.” To marry in the Catholic Church, yes, of course.
 
I think everybody else has hit the nail firmly on the head. I think you are well shed of a guy who would be such a snake as to lie whether or not he has ever been married to his intended (I take it you have no children together, as those would be pretty hard to conceal when he had them for visitation).
 
OK…As far as the Chuch is concerned if you have gotten an annulment you are able to say I am single or I have never participated in the sacrament of marriage. It is a stretch and a little underhanded to say I have never been married to a person that you are seriously dating or are going to marry. However, I don’t know how many of you have seen a marriage licence from VA, I know they have the question Number of this marriage? on their marriage license application. As for the answer…it would have to be two…It doesn’t matter if the Church has said a valid marriage didn’t exist, to the state, they want the actual number not the actual valid number. I think there are probably many states that ask this on their marriage licenses. How do I know? My ex put it a 1 in that spot and he was actually still married to his ex at the time he married me. Hmmmm… Is this separation of Church and State at it’s finest?
 
Yes, it would be dishonest.

Your ex-husband does not properly understand a decree of nullity and what the Church teaches on the subject. He is fooling only himself with his idea that he will act like your marriage never existed. If he does actually conceal a prior marriage from a future spouse, that in itself is grounds for an annulment because it is deception and fraud.

The Church absolutely recognizes that a civil marriage took place and existed. A decree of nullity only acknowledges that a sacramental marriage did not exist and therefore the person is free to marry in the Church.
 
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faithhopelove:
Not sure if this is the right forum, but here it goes…

An annulment process is underway for my marriage. My ex-husband (I say ex because civily we are no longer married) has told me that he plans on stating that he has never been married if and when our marriage is declared null. (He also intends to never inform a future wife of my existence; he believes she would prefer that, as that is what he would prefer (ie that he never be informed of any previous relationship)). Although I fully agree with the church’s position that once declared null, the marriage is now assumed to have never existed, it seems to me to be dishonest to say that “I was never married” or not tell a future spouse that at one time I believed myself to be married, etc.

What do you think is the appropriate response to the question of have you been married if the marriage has been declared null? It is dishonest to say that you are single and not mention the previous relationship/marriage?
First of all, only be concerned with what YOU do. As far as your ex, he has to look at himself every morning and like what he sees. Your ex is just that…your EX.

As far as your dilema, “I am single” would be an appropriate response initally. When the time comes or further explanation is required, a simple " I was married" is all that is necessary. It is no ones business but yours as to the reasons you are no longer married, unless you so choose to further enlighten them.

~ Kathy ~

P.S. Someone once told me to remember this when telling someone something… KISS… Keep It Simple Sweetheart
 
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