Is doctrine formed from tradition?

[Mark01]

doctrine:
teaching, instruction…something that is taught…a principle or position or body of principles in a branch or system of belief.

tradition:
an inherited, established or customary pattern of thought, or behavior

Hello all, I am a frequent visitor but seldom post on the forums and do a bit of my research here in this forum because of my interest in other Christian denominations, mainly Baptist since of their strong belief in the biblical tradition, my wife is from a Baptist church and is at the point of confusion regarding Catholic tradition vs Baptist tradition. In our discussions and bible study together, issues concerning doctrine will come up and she drops back into the mode of “where is that in the Bible?” and from there our discussions and study turn south because when I use the Bible to explain doctrine she becomes agitated and will make the claim that that is a “tradition of man” and not what she has been taught. When I discuss with her that what she was taught is based on tradition she shuts down and will no longer participate in the discussion.

I use this as an example to put forth my question on the forum to other Christians.It is my theory that all religions base their doctrines on tradition. As a Catholic part of my belief is based on the doctrine that tradition is part of God’s revelation to man. It is a part of how, as a Catholic, I come closer to God.

I would be most interested in other’s thoughts if and how tradition is used to formulate their religious doctrine.

 

[laszlo]

Most part of the religious doctrine comes from God, some from the rational mind.

The History before Moses (Genesis) came entirely through the tradition and was recorded later. God talked to Adam and Eve, Noah, the Patriarch but that was not recorded in surviving contemporary documents

The later content of the Old Testament came through Moses, the Prophets and the Holy writes. They received the inspiration from God, part of that was recorded in the appropriate canonical books, part remained as oral tradition. In the Jewish religion the oral tradition is equal with the written one. Since with the coming Messias they lost their leading role in the salvation, some part of their oral tradition may be distorted later.

Christian doctrine comes from Jesus Christ. Some part of his words and deeds were recorded by eyewitnesses, other part (like some doctrine about Mary remained only as oral tradition). Either the interpretation of of written books (starting with the problem what books belong to the Bible) and the clear perseverance of the oral tradition is given by the Holy Spirit who acts through the living Magisterium.

Not only our will but also our intellect is insufficient related to God, we need His special help, for understanding the Magisterium.

 

[Mark01]

I have started reading the works of St.Thomas Aquinas and the explanation he gives on the necessity of Sacred Doctrine are wonderful

I do wonder though why so many people reject the doctrine of Sacred Tradition and believe it to be an invention of men and not born of God. God did give us certain capabilities in order to search out revelation as well as a means to discover these revelations. I believe tradition plays a very important role and is one of the means we are to use. It is how information is passed from one generation to the next. It is tradition which formulates our ideas.

 

[benidict]

Most part of the religious doctrine comes from God, some from the rational mind.

The History before Moses (Genesis) came entirely through the tradition and was recorded later. God talked to Adam and Eve, Noah, the Patriarch but that was not recorded in surviving contemporary documents

The later content of the Old Testament came through Moses, the Prophets and the Holy writes. They received the inspiration from God, part of that was recorded in the appropriate canonical books, part remained as oral tradition. In the Jewish religion the oral tradition is equal with the written one. Since with the coming Messias they lost their leading role in the salvation, some part of their oral tradition may be distorted later.

Christian doctrine comes from Jesus Christ. Some part of his words and deeds were recorded by eyewitnesses, other part (like some doctrine about Mary remained only as oral tradition). Either the interpretation of of written books (starting with the problem what books belong to the Bible) and the clear perseverance of the oral tradition is given by the Holy Spirit who acts through the living Magisterium.

Not only our will but also our intellect is insufficient related to God, we need His special help, for understanding the Magisterium.

yes. and have they not determined that deuteronomy may not have been written down until the time of king Josiah? i could be wrong here. but i thought i read this somewhere. Peace

 

[JRKH]

doctrine:
teaching, instruction…something that is taught…a principle or position or body of principles in a branch or system of belief.

tradition:
an inherited, established or customary pattern of thought, or behavior

Hello all, I am a frequent visitor but seldom post on the forums and do a bit of my research here in this forum because of my interest in other Christian denominations, mainly Baptist since of their strong belief in the biblical tradition, my wife is from a Baptist church and is at the point of confusion regarding Catholic tradition vs Baptist tradition. In our discussions and bible study together, issues concerning doctrine will come up and she drops back into the mode of “where is that in the Bible?” and from there our discussions and study turn south because when I use the Bible to explain doctrine she becomes agitated and will make the claim that that is a “tradition of man” and not what she has been taught. When I discuss with her that what she was taught is based on tradition she shuts down and will no longer participate in the discussion.

I use this as an example to put forth my question on the forum to other Christians.It is my theory that all religions base their doctrines on tradition. As a Catholic part of my belief is based on the doctrine that tradition is part of God’s revelation to man. It is a part of how, as a Catholic, I come closer to God.

I would be most interested in other’s thoughts if and how tradition is used to formulate their religious doctrine.

It might depend on how you wish to define the idea of tradition. The definition you offer above makes the very Bible itself “tradtion” as our acceptance of it, our faith in it is, “an inherited, established or customary pattern of thought”.
So in this sense You statement is True. All Doctrine grows from Tradition.

However in common usage, Scripture and Tradition are used as seperate terms. Thus the Doctrine that Christ died on the Cross and Rose from the dead is not a doctrine based on tradition but on Scripture and is pretty straight forward. Same with Thou shalt not: commit murder, adultery or covet anything that is thy neighbor’s. Other passages in Scripture where there is disagreement on their meanings certianly the faith tradition one comes from heavily influences ones viewpoint and ability to absorb another’s views.

This is what you find in your discussions with your wife. You likely agree on the bible passages that are clear and clean but run into trouble where the passages are either not explicitly clear, or have been traditionally interpreted differently by your respective faith traditions. This is why, when you demonstrate Catholic Doctrine as bible based, she is confused. She has been taught that such is not the case. Baptists have it right and Catholics have it wrong.

Peace
James

 

[Mark01]

James

What I’m trying to do in these discussions with my wife is to avoid the “your wrong, I’m right” approach. What I’m trying to achieve is a common ground. When I first met my wife, I was a widower and even though I was a Catholic, you could say that I was a non-participating, ignorant, Catholic, living in a state of mortal sin. She was a semi participating Baptist and has always felt that God has played an important role in her life. She has a very good knowledge of the Bible and it sparked an interest in me to want to learn more. I started with a Baptist Bible study group concerning Christianity and that lead me to a study of the Baptist tradition, which to me was conflicted and lacking in any type of unity of doctrine outside a particulier church. In short my Catholic tradition prevented me from embracing the Baptist tradition and led to a study of Sacred Tradition found in the Catholic and Orthodox Church.

I no longer want to be indifferent to my religous beliefs and I want my wife and I to share in a common practice. She no longer attends her Baptist church because of some less than informed remarks made concerning the Catholic Church and is very uncomfortable when she attends Mass with me, because she is excluded from communion, I am afraid my journey back to the Church has been detrimental to her faith. She is resistant to any type of study concerning Church doctrine, based on her Baptist tradition and yet will not attempt to understand where that Baptist tradition comes from.

 

[JRKH]

James

What I’m trying to do in these discussions with my wife is to avoid the “your wrong, I’m right” approach. What I’m trying to achieve is a common ground.

I believe this is the best and only real way to approach this. Truth is not a "I win you lose’ proposition. Especially so when you are working through things with the love of your life.

When I first met my wife, I was a widower and even though I was a Catholic, you could say that I was a non-participating, ignorant, Catholic, living in a state of mortal sin. She was a semi participating Baptist and has always felt that God has played an important role in her life. She has a very good knowledge of the Bible and it sparked an interest in me to want to learn more. I started with a Baptist Bible study group concerning Christianity and that lead me to a study of the Baptist tradition, which to me was conflicted and lacking in any type of unity of doctrine outside a particulier church. In short my Catholic tradition prevented me from embracing the Baptist tradition and led to a study of Sacred Tradition found in the Catholic and Orthodox Church.

Though my hisotry is quite differnt from yours I think I can still relate. This lack of continuity and consistancy one of the things that kept me out of the “protestant fold” and more “in the wilderness” when I was away from the Church. You showed good common sense to see it and pursue studies on the ancient church(s).

I no longer want to be indifferent to my religous beliefs and I want my wife and I to share in a common practice. She no longer attends her Baptist church because of some less than informed remarks made concerning the Catholic Church and is very uncomfortable when she attends Mass with me, because she is excluded from communion, I am afraid my journey back to the Church has been detrimental to her faith. She is resistant to any type of study concerning Church doctrine, based on her Baptist tradition and yet will not attempt to understand where that Baptist tradition comes from.

Don’t try to push her toward Catholicism. I’m sure you realize this already. the best thing that you can do is to pursue your studies, share with her to the extent that she is willing and be the best Catholic and the best husband possible. I’m certain that ti will be through your gentle leadership that she will be led home to The Church.

As for her feeling left out of communion, it will take tiome for her to come to understand. Try to explain to her that it is because of the Church’s great Love and concern for her soul that we have closed communion. This passage in 1 Cor 11 says it all
27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself.
Since Baptists do not accept the “real presence” and see communion as symbolic she, or anyone not properly catechized into the church, would be receiving unworthily and bringing “judgement upon” themselves.
Now she may have a different understanding of this and we must respect this, but hopefully she will also understand that closed communion is done out of Love and not eliteism.

Peace
James

 

[Mark01]

]
Since Baptists do not accept the “real presence” and see communion as symbolic she, or anyone not properly catechized into the church, would be receiving unworthily and bringing “judgement upon” themselves.
Now she may have a different understanding of this and we must respect this, but hopefully she will also understand that closed communion is done out of Love and not eliteism.

She does believe in the “real presence”, she has professed this to me and says it is what she believes in her heart. I get frustrated so many times, when we do converse but I pray constantly for the fruits of the Holy Spirit and I am learning to curb my approaches.

Thank you for the kind words of wisdom James.

Merry Christmas and Blessings to you and yours

 

[JRKH]

She does believe in the “real presence”, she has professed this to me and says it is what she believes in her heart. I get frustrated so many times, when we do converse but I pray constantly for the fruits of the Holy Spirit and I am learning to curb my approaches.

Thank you for the kind words of wisdom James.

Merry Christmas and Blessings to you and yours

And a very Merry Christmas to you as well.

It sounds to me as if she is well and truly on her way into the Church. Pray for her, Love her, discuss with her and the Holy spirit will take care of the rest.
Though it’s kind of too late this year, I might also suggest that next year you and she both might consider taking the RCIA course together. It doesn’t commit her to entering the Church but it might help…Just a thought.

Peace
James

 

[KathleenGee]

Doctrine defines belief and its parameters vs other beliefs.

 

[Mark01]

Hello Kathleen

I have an understanding of what doctrine is and what it does in defining one’s beliefs. We of the Catholic belief rely equally on tradition as well as scripture. The Catholic Church has always defined Sacred Doctrine in the light of Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture. My question is concerning other deity based systems of belief, particularly other Christian based beliefs.

It is my opinion that Christians whether they be, Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant or those Christians who feel they fall outside of these three, use and have used some form of tradition in formulating doctrine.

I have a hard time discussing this with my wife and others who are not Catholic, because they deny that they use tradition and that traditions are man made. I just don’t know how one can make that claim in the time we live in since Christianity has moved beyond the first generation.

 

[Nicea325]

James

What I’m trying to do in these discussions with my wife is to avoid the “your wrong, I’m right” approach. What I’m trying to achieve is a common ground. When I first met my wife, I was a widower and even though I was a Catholic, you could say that I was a non-participating, ignorant, Catholic, living in a state of mortal sin. She was a semi participating Baptist and has always felt that God has played an important role in her life. She has a very good knowledge of the Bible and it sparked an interest in me to want to learn more. I started with a Baptist Bible study group concerning Christianity and that lead me to a study of the Baptist tradition, which to me was conflicted and lacking in any type of unity of doctrine outside a particulier church. In short my Catholic tradition prevented me from embracing the Baptist tradition and led to a study of Sacred Tradition found in the Catholic and Orthodox Church.

I no longer want to be indifferent to my religous beliefs and I want my wife and I to share in a common practice. She no longer attends her Baptist church because of some less than informed remarks made concerning the Catholic Church and is very uncomfortable when she attends Mass with me, because she is excluded from communion, I am afraid my journey back to the Church has been detrimental to her faith. She is resistant to any type of study concerning Church doctrine, based on her Baptist tradition and yet will not attempt to understand where that Baptist tradition comes from.

She is resistant to any type of study concerning Church doctrine, based on her Baptist tradition and yet will not attempt to understand where that Baptist tradition comes from

I call it fear of knowing the TRUTH. Many get offended when they hear the Truth.

 

[JRKH]

Hello Kathleen

I have an understanding of what doctrine is and what it does in defining one’s beliefs. We of the Catholic belief rely equally on tradition as well as scripture. The Catholic Church has always defined Sacred Doctrine in the light of Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture. My question is concerning other deity based systems of belief, particularly other Christian based beliefs.

It is my opinion that Christians whether they be, Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant or those Christians who feel they fall outside of these three, use and have used some form of tradition in formulating doctrine.

I have a hard time discussing this with my wife and others who are not Catholic, because they deny that they use tradition and that traditions are man made. I just don’t know how one can make that claim in the time we live in since Christianity has moved beyond the first generation.

The wall you are running into is a common one. It stems from the fact that most protestant Christians equate the word “tradition” with the passages in Mat and Mark where Jesus condemns the Pharisees for, “making void the word of God through your tradition”…(Mk 7:13)
Because they equate this word with Christ’s condemnation, they refuse to recognize anything that they hold to as coming from “tradition”.
It will take quite a bit of gentle talk and coaxing plus the action of the Holy Spirit, for her to come to realize what you are trying to get across. This is a wall that can only be taken down one brick at a time.

Peace
James

 

[wmscott]

The wall you are running into is a common one. It stems from the fact that most protestant Christians equate the word “tradition” with the passages in Mat and Mark where Jesus condemns the Pharisees for, “making void the word of God through your tradition”…(Mk 7:13)
Because they equate this word with Christ’s condemnation, they refuse to recognize anything that they hold to as coming from “tradition”.
It will take quite a bit of gentle talk and coaxing plus the action of the Holy Spirit, for her to come to realize what you are trying to get across. This is a wall that can only be taken down one brick at a time.

Peace
James

That is because when they use Mk 7:13, they miss the “Mark” on this subject Sorry could not resist

 

[KathleenGee]

Mark,

The false teachers put such a fear into these people, who become very scarred and are unable to understand…too afraid to.

We have a priest now ordained who came from a Fundamentalist background…

All the way, after so many steps, he would fall back into fear. He finally made it and is now so happy.

They also have a complete inability to study early Church history and realize that doctrines were defined because of heretical and apostate concepts about Christ that do not fully lead us to Him and to eternal life – with Him and each other.

I have to leave to Christ’s mercy and only He can judge… I know there will be many in heaven…I was always told by the nuns people will be surprised who there with them.