Is Eastern Orthodoxy hopelessly divided?

[ChristMyLife]

Division and disunity and lack of full intercommunion has been a major issue within the Eastern Orthodox Churches for a millenium now, but things seem to be coming to a head in our age.

Throughout the 20th century there were major issues with lack of full communion, internal schism, and accusations of heresy and schism constantly between Estonia, Moscow and Constantinople, between the Orthodox Church of America (OCA), between the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia (ROCOR), and between the Russian Orthodox Church - Moscow Patriarchate (ROC or MP). Bare with me here, I know there’s a lot of acronyms.

The disputes between jursidiction and lack of full communion between Estonia and the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople (EP) and the MP have been resolved.

Inter communion between OCA, ROCOR, and MP has been established as far as I know, but disputes over jurisdiction are ongoing.

Now in our own day though, we see the worst division and disunity amongst our EO brethren. The ancient Apostolic and Petrine See of Antioch and those under its jurisdiction are not in full communion with those under the jurisdiction of the ancient Apostolic See of St. James in Jerusalem.

Nearly 3 million Orthodox Christians are involved in this division. This is hugely scandalous for obvious symbolic reasons.

Next we’ve got major issues in Macedonia and Belarus. The Belarusian and Macedonian Orthodox Churches, which together number over 5 MILLION EO believers, are considered “schismatic” and uncanonical because they want an independent Church structure (known as autocephaly). However, Belarus is stuck under control of Moscow, and Macedonia is stuck under control of Serbia, which is beholden to Moscow.

Over 5 million Orthodox Christians are involved in this division - it is yet another major scandal of discord and division.

Next we have the issue of Old Calendarist, Old Believer, and “True Orthodox” schisms. These are non canonical Orthodox groups which can’t really be called Churches, but it is a serious problem nonetheless.

There are over 6 million Orthodox Christians involved in these seperations…

 

[ChristMyLife]

Next we have the most current, and IMO the most serious blow to Eastern Orthodox unity. We have the newly created Orthodox Church of Ukraine (OCU) which is the 2nd largest EO Church in the world with 25 MILLION people, yet ALL of these are considered schismatics by the largest EO Church in the world the ROC which numbers 150 million+ people. Yet this second largest of all EO Churches is considered canonical and will be granted an official tomos of autocephaly by the EP in January. And as we all know, the EP is the primatial See of Orthodoxy and the spiritual center of Byzantine Chriatianity. The Rite which all EO Churches use, the Byzantine aka Constantinopolitan Rite originated from it, and the EP is considered the first among equals. The EP is vastly important to EO, yet they are excommunicated by Moscow.

So now we see we have the second largest EO Church, the OCU which also happens to be based out of Kiev - the spiritual center of all Slavic Christendom, together with the EP in communion with each other, but the EP is excommunicated and the OCU is considered schismatic.

The 28 million Orthodox Christians under the EP and OCU being divided from the 150 million Orthodox Christians under the MP is hugely problematic… For obvious reasons.

Lastly, we have the issue of the pan-Orthodox Council of Crete which took place in June 2016. It was supposed to be the first truly Ecumenical Council of the EO in over a millenium, but the Churches of Antioch, Bulgaria, Georgia and Russia failed to attend or ratify its documents, thus consigning it to history essentially as a failure.

Now, as a Catholic Christian, I can simply say all this division, disunity, and schism in the EO communion is due to their lack of communion with the Holy Roman See, which is the visible sign of Unity to all Christians in the world. Catholics don’t have the issues the EO do - you’re either in full communion with Rome and thus a Catholic, or you’re not in communion with Rome and thus in a state of at least material schism. Simple.

Out of 250-300 million Orthodox Christians in the world, about 190 million of them are involved in disputes with other Orthodox, lack full communion with them, are considered schismatics or heretics, have issues with jurisdiction, and all around have serious issues of Unity and Communion which they are dealing with.

How do EO deal with this situation?

 

[adamhovey1988]

Not hopelessly, no. I think the EOC would be much better off if they accepted the Pope of Rome as the person who has the final say. Having said that, many EOCs see themselves as protectors of a rather ancient tradition, and that’s completely admirable.

 

[ChristMyLife]

think the EOC would be much better off if they accepted the Pope of Rome as the person who has the final say. Having said that, many EOCs see themselves as protectors of a rather ancient tradition, and that’s completely admirable.

I agree, if they came back to unity and embraced Rome they would be healed.

My hope and prayer is that the EP and OCU will work out some sort of agreement to enter into full Communion with Rome.

But I have a feeling that’s not going to happen, and the EO Churches are going to continue to fracture and split.

In fact, I think by the end of this decade or early next decade, the EO will call a true pan-Orthodox Council (although Rome, Constantinople, and Kiev won’t be there, so it won’t be an Ecumenical Council), and the EP and OCU and anyone in communion with them will officially be declared schismatics, and the Primacy within EO will move to Moscow, the “third Rome.”

So then you’ll have the Eastern Orthodox Churches in communion with Moscow which will be over 200 million Orthodox Christians, and a separate EO Communion of Churches under the EP which will number 30-50 million Orthodox Christians.

It will be interesting to see if that new EO-EP communion would seek reconciliation with either the Oriental Orthodox or with Rome…

We live in interesting times.

 

[Savage92]

I don’t think so, politics has done some of the worst damage to the Church, east and west I would say. I’m sure every Catholic would acknowledge the Reformation was extremely politically charged and did great damage to the western Church. And while I respect them especially for how they stood for the faith through the communist era, the Russian Church has been involved in political ordeals in the aftermath of that and been the centre of all these things. Personally I don’t think the difficulties will outlast the political claims over the countries so unless Putin recreates some empire I can’t see it happening.

 

[ChristMyLife]

Thanks @Savage92 for your (name removed by moderator)ut my friend.

 

[semper_catholicus]

If only they were all apart of a Church that had a visible, indefectible head against which the gates of Hell wouldn’t never prevail.

Honestly, I don’t care if they schism among themselves. If anything, that proves that there wasn’t any unity to begin with in the Eastern Orthodox Churches. Makes the Catholic Church look more promising.

 

[Isaac14]

Honestly, I don’t care if they schism among themselves. If anything, that proves that there wasn’t any unity to begin with in the Eastern Orthodox Churches. Makes the Catholic Church look more promising.

Thanks for the charity & love. This Orthodox Christian appreciates it.

 

[ChristMyLife]

Thanks for the charity & love. This Orthodox Christian appreciates it.

Sorry for that Isaac, I don’t share his sentiment.

The more internal schism the EO undergo, the more they will be focused on that, and the slower ecumenical dialogue with the Catholic Church will proceed.

I’ve often prayed for the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox to reunify into a single large Eastern/Oriental Orthodox Catholic communion, and then have a unification council where the Popes of Rome and Alexandria sit with the Patriarchs of Constantinople, Antioch, Jerusalem and Moscow and East and West unite into One.

It’s only a dream…

 

[ChristMyLife]

I’m following the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the OCU, the Albanian Orthodox, and the unrecognized Belarusian and Macedonian Orthodox Churches closely.

I think all of these Churches are prime candidates right now to reunify with Rome…

Apparently the Albanians have approached Rome, but Rome basically told them to hold on because we don’t want to scandalize or cause issues with Moscow.

But with Moscow apparently going its own way these days, I think it may be time for Rome simply stop caring what Moscow thinks, seeing as how Moscow hates us anyway.

I think things are getting so bad between Moscow and the West, that eventually the West is just gonna have to wash their hands of Moscow…

Moscow seems hellbent on bringing about WWIII… Putin is utterly out of control. A modern day Nebuchadnezzar posing in Christian clothes.

Patriarch Kirill has been pretty courageous standing up to Putin a few times, but it’s clear that the Russian Orthodox Church is subservient to the Kremlin.

 

[ziapueblo]

If only they were all apart of a Church that had a visible, indefectible head against which the gates of Hell wouldn’t never prevail.

Are you saying there is no division or internal strife within the Catholic Church?

Honestly, I don’t care if they schism among themselves. If anything, that proves that there wasn’t any unity to begin with in the Eastern Orthodox Churches. Makes the Catholic Church look more promising.

Promising to whom? The only way, in my opinion, full communion between the Catholic and Orthodox Church will happen is first and foremost, a proper understanding of the role of the Pope based on the Chieti Document. Second, an acceptance that both East and West have different theology and Rome’s dogmas must not be imposed on the Orthodox.

ZP

 

[NJC89]

I was raised Catholic, converted to the Eastern Orthodox Church and am now Oriental (Coptic) Orthodox. As a former Catholic, my biggest struggle being Orthodox is the ethnic rivalries and jurisdictional chaos, so i completely sympathise with everything you said (and have made these points publicly myself).

Here is how Orthodox Christians, both Oriental and Eastern, see this situation:

Roman Catholics have administrative unity, but have lost their traditions, their liturgy, their sense of the sacred. We Orthodox Christians have jurisdictional chaos, but it has helped us preserve our liturgy and traditions, helped us resist secularism and westernism, etc. So, which would you prefer? Administrative unity, or your ancient liturgy?

Whether that argument is convincing to a Catholic is another matter entirely - but most defense’s of Orthodoxy are variations of this theme.

I do sympathise with it a little. I completely disagree with Patriarch Bartholemew, and think he is a disaster for the Orthodox Church, and thank God that nothing he does will affect me as a Coptic Orthodox Christian. If i was Eastern Orthodox, i would just join a ROCOR, Serbian or MP church and i would “vote with my feet” by not being under his authority.

But in the Catholic Church, when you get a bad Pope, like Francis (IMO), there is nothing you can do except put up with them and criticise them all while trying to maintain respect for the “Office of Peter” and Papal infallibility, etc.

So while every Orthodox Christian wishes our church was better organised, perhaps it is Gods way of saving us from ourselves?

But don’t misunderstand me - it is a crisis big enough to make me rethink my own conversion to Orthodoxy from time to time.

God bless

 

[NJC89]

Also, don’t forget the Orthodox see “unity” differently to Catholics. Because we don’t have a Pope like the one in Rome, breaking off of communion between church’s is not a disaster and is simply the way church’s show their disagreements with each other until the matter is resolved.

They do this because they will claim that “unity” is not dependent upon there being a bureaucracy to run the global church - unity is the common sacraments, the common Divine Liturgy, the holding of the same Faith, the same dogma’s, the same Apostolic succession, the same pursuit of ascetism and holiness, etc.

I personally see this most clearly in the Coptic Orthodox Church. While i am no longer in “communion” with the Greek Orthodox Church that originally Baptised me, i still visit often, and i feel a similar “Spirit” in both church’s, despite 1500 years of seperation the liturgies are very similar, the dogma is the same, the ascetism is the same, etc. In fact, the Greek Orthodox monastery that Baptised me has lot’s of Ethiopian and Coptic visitors, and our Coptic Church’s youth meetings are occasionally held as a retreat at the Greek Orthodox monastery where the Greek Orthodox monks do spiritual talks for the Coptic youth.

So, at a local, community level these breaking of communions don’t affect the lives of ordinary Orthodox Christians very much.

Another example is that i have a Greek friend married to a Russian girl, and they go between the Russian and Greek church’s. I am sure it’s inconvenient what has happened but everyone understands it’s politics, unfortunate and sooner or later is will be resolved.

God bless

 

[ChristMyLife]

So while every Orthodox Christian wishes our church was better organised, perhaps it is Gods way of saving us from ourselves?

But don’t misunderstand me - it is a crisis big enough to make me rethink my own conversion to Orthodoxy from time to time.

I appreciate your candor, and also the irenic manner you delivered it with.

I certainly get what you say about liturgical tradition… When I compare how the local Russian Orthodox Church celebrates the Byzantine Rite with how my Ukrainian Catholic Parish does… The Russians are celebrating it on a whole nother level.

I mean, we celebrate the basic Liturgy in a very devout manner. But there is a LOT of little bells and whistles, to say nothing of the Hours, which we don’t celebrate at all.

I am no expert on Liturgy, but recently I’ve been thinking about attending the Liturgies of the RO Church and maybe even getting guidance from some of the Orthodox over there, and trying to bring that back to my Ukrainian parish to try and recover some of our Byzantine liturgical traditions…

I dunno.

You bring up a great point, and the best answer I can give I think is: Kyrie Eleison.

Individual Christians just have to try to live with what they have and do the best they can to be true to their faith.

 

[dochawk]

Rome has already reject this approach, which would increase divisions in the east.

And note that only some of the groups followed the new church approach in the past, while others (Ukranian, Melkite, Ruthenian, etc.) joined as institutions.