Is 'ecumenicism' blurring the lines?

[LEMAITRE]

My view is that it doesn’t blur the lines, I have a Catholic friend who thinks it is deceptive and destructive for Catholicism.

My argument for is that it fosters goodwill and ties with our non-Catholic brethren be they ‘Christian’ or ‘other religion’. I think we are secure enough in our history and Truth, so much so that ecumenicism cannot blur or dent the Church’s stance or compromises any of our positions or Doctrines.

The argument I hear against it is that it devalues the established authority of the Church by fostering confusion among non-Catholics about who the True Church is.

What do you think?

 

[Semper_Zelare]

I agree with you, but I can see where others are coming from. Personally, I think the ‘established authority’ of our Church is literally rock-solid. The Catholic Church is always going to be the one with the most authority.

Although this is the case, many individual Catholics may have a very limited grasp of the faith, and may not know what exactly it is we believe, let alone enough to defend those beliefs.

I think Catholics who know their faith well should be involved in ecumenism with our Protestant brothers and sisters (be it attending services, small groups, or w/e). If you aren’t sound in your faith, then maybe that’s not the best idea. However, in the marketplace of ideas we are clearly seeing a lot of Protestants converting and joining the Catholic Church.

Dialogue has to be a part of bringing them back to the Church.

The bottom line is this: Catholics should know their own faith first. Once they firmly grasp their own faith, I think it is good for our Church if we then learn about other Christian faiths. If we are open to going to Protestant services and ministries, then Protestants will be willing to go to Catholic masses and ministries. I believe from experience that the Holy Spirit can work through all of them.

 

[missadeangelis]

My view is that it doesn’t blur the lines, I have a Catholic friend who thinks it is deceptive and destructive for Catholicism.

My argument for is that it fosters goodwill and ties with our non-Catholic brethren be they ‘Christian’ or ‘other religion’. I think we are secure enough in our history and Truth, so much so that ecumenicism cannot blur or dent the Church’s stance or compromises any of our positions or Doctrines.

The argument I hear against it is that it devalues the established authority of the Church by fostering confusion among non-Catholics about who the True Church is.

What do you think?

True ecumenism is fruitful, however false ecumenism (as is sometimes practiced today) is a danger to the faith and the faithful. True ecumenism is that which has as its objective to convert people without compromise or concession of any Catholic doctrine or dogma and bring them into communion with the fullness of Truth which was entrusted by our Blessed Lord to the Catholic Church and which remains in Her.

False ecumenism, and this is where people can get confused, occurs when Catholics approach our Separated Brethren for the purpose of sharing beliefs and coming to a compromise whereby the Catholic person then becomes satisfied that the other ecclesial community is just as good and true as the Catholic Church. Conversion is not necessarily the objective. Often this happens by way of a “you have your truth, and I have my truth and that’s close enough” mentality. Ultimately, there is only one Truth and it cannot be in contradiction with itself.

To be clear, other Christian ecclesial communities may well believe in and/or practice pieces of the authentic Truth, but those authentic pieces are Catholic. There is no authentic Christian Truth that the Catholic Church does not possess.

Also worthy of mention is that the term ecumenism is concerned with Christian ecclesial communities only and does not include other faiths. Inter-religious dialogue is a different matter and was addressed separately from ecumenism at Vatican II in two separate documents.

I agree with you, but I can see where others are coming from. Personally, I think the ‘established authority’ of our Church is literally rock-solid. The Catholic Church is always going to be the one with the most authority.

Although this is the case, many individual Catholics may have a very limited grasp of the faith, and may not know what exactly it is we believe, let alone enough to defend those beliefs.

I think Catholics who know their faith well should be involved in ecumenism with our Protestant brothers and sisters (be it attending services, small groups, or w/e). If you aren’t sound in your faith, then maybe that’s not the best idea. However, in the marketplace of ideas we are clearly seeing a lot of Protestants converting and joining the Catholic Church.

Dialogue has to be a part of bringing them back to the Church.

The bottom line is this: Catholics should know their own faith first. Once they firmly grasp their own faith, I think it is good for our Church if we then learn about other Christian faiths. If we are open to going to Protestant services and ministries, then Protestants will be willing to go to Catholic masses and ministries. I believe from experience that the Holy Spirit can work through all of them.

I agree that Catholics have to learn and know the Faith before proceeding with practicing true ecumenism in any coordinated manner. I personally disagree that a Catholic should be encouraged to go to Protestant services unless they do not participate. To me it conveys a false degree of assent and agreement that the Catholic considers the service to be equal and not deficient. While section 2791 of the Catechism speaks about “prayer in common” regarding ecumenism, I’ve been advised in the past that something like saying the Our Father with Protestants in a prayer group or something is fine, but taking part in a deficient Protestant worship service (excepting funerals and maybe weddings depending on the case) is not acceptable.

mda

 

[1AugustSon7]

Ecumenism does not necessarily have to have as its primary objective the conversion of others.

Indeed, to make that the objective would frustrate ecumenism, insomuch as dialogue is difficult when one or both sides have the objective of proselytizing the other. Ecumenism and dialogue facilitate communication, understanding and cooperation that can generate a legitimate and fruitful peace and also, in some cases, through the testimony of Christ by their lives or examples or the sharing of the Christ’s/the Church’s doctrine prompt a conversion to the Church. Ecumenism and inter-religious dialogue are conspicuous for peace-making, and this peace-making -we can confidently hope- will be accompanied by God’s blessing and, it is also hoped, the increase of the Church through conversion. Ecumenism and evangelization, though arguably closely related (insomuch as doctrine is communicated) are not the same thing.

True ecumenism is fruitful, however false ecumenism (as is sometimes practiced today) is a danger to the faith and the faithful. True ecumenism is that which has as its objective to convert people without compromise or concession of any Catholic doctrine or dogma and bring them into communion with the fullness of Truth which was entrusted by our Blessed Lord to the Catholic Church and which remains in Her.

False ecumenism, and this is where people can get confused, occurs when Catholics approach our Separated Brethren for the purpose of sharing beliefs and coming to a compromise whereby the Catholic person then becomes satisfied that the other ecclesial community is just as good and true as the Catholic Church. Conversion is not necessarily the objective. Often this happens by way of a “you have your truth, and I have my truth and that’s close enough” mentality. Ultimately, there is only one Truth and it cannot be in contradiction with itself.

To be clear, other Christian ecclesial communities may well believe in and/or practice pieces of the authentic Truth, but those authentic pieces are Catholic. There is no authentic Christian Truth that the Catholic Church does not possess.

Also worthy of mention is that the term ecumenism is concerned with Christian ecclesial communities only and does not include other faiths. Inter-religious dialogue is a different matter and was addressed separately from ecumenism at Vatican II in two separate documents.

I agree that Catholics have to learn and know the Faith before proceeding with practicing true ecumenism in any coordinated manner. I personally disagree that a Catholic should be encouraged to go to Protestant services unless they do not participate. To me it conveys a false degree of assent and agreement that the Catholic considers the service to be equal and not deficient. While section 2791 of the Catechism speaks about “prayer in common” regarding ecumenism, I’ve been advised in the past that something like saying the Our Father with Protestants in a prayer group or something is fine, but taking part in a deficient Protestant worship service (excepting funerals and maybe weddings depending on the case) is not acceptable.

mda

 

[GaryTaylor]

Well said.

For there to be real peace, we must dialogue with others who are capable of rational thinking and where we find them. Conversion happens not by a push but by desire. This comes as a result of really reaching out to others. Its the end not the start.

 

[Julia_Mae]

What do you think?

I think there aren’t any Catholics in Heaven.

 

[Regina_Love]

I think there aren’t any Catholics in Heaven.

why?

 

[LEMAITRE]

I think there aren’t any Catholics in Heaven.

Please stick to the topic or go to another topic. I’m sick of threads being hijacked by comments which have nothing to do with the subject or irrelevant skeletal statements.

 

[LEMAITRE]

I agree with you, but I can see where others are coming from. Personally, I think the ‘established authority’ of our Church is literally rock-solid. The Catholic Church is always going to be the one with the most authority.

Although this is the case, many individual Catholics may have a very limited grasp of the faith, and may not know what exactly it is we believe, let alone enough to defend those beliefs.

I think Catholics who know their faith well should be involved in ecumenism with our Protestant brothers and sisters (be it attending services, small groups, or w/e). If you aren’t sound in your faith, then maybe that’s not the best idea. However, in the marketplace of ideas we are clearly seeing a lot of Protestants converting and joining the Catholic Church.

Dialogue has to be a part of bringing them back to the Church.

The bottom line is this: Catholics should know their own faith first. Once they firmly grasp their own faith, I think it is good for our Church if we then learn about other Christian faiths. If we are open to going to Protestant services and ministries, then Protestants will be willing to go to Catholic masses and ministries. I believe from experience that the Holy Spirit can work through all of them.

You’re right about Catholics needing to know their own faith, the danger in not knowing is they may fall into the trap of not being able to defend the faith and being convinced that all Christian ecclesial communities hold authority.

I don’t attend Protestant services unless it’s a funeral or wedding and I’m not participating, I don’t consider their regular Sunday services spiritually edifying. I do attend a Bible study group once a month with my Baptist friends. It’s interesting and we respect each others views. I go along mainly to put forward the Catholic interpretation of Scripture and for the fellowship. We learn from each other.

 

[GaryTaylor]

You’re right about Catholics needing to know their own faith

Yes, its a good point and an important part of evangelization, which in essence begins within the self through the Church. This was apparent this year with religious freedom, abortion etc. Which I see as a wake up call and insight into what needs to occur.

There’s a greater emphasis on awareness of Church teaching now, and an attempt to engage individuals to involve themselves in the process. I believe its a sound path which will manifest itself outward.

 

[Eufrosnia]

My view is that it doesn’t blur the lines, I have a Catholic friend who thinks it is deceptive and destructive for Catholicism.

My argument for is that it fosters goodwill and ties with our non-Catholic brethren be they ‘Christian’ or ‘other religion’. I think we are secure enough in our history and Truth, so much so that ecumenicism cannot blur or dent the Church’s stance or compromises any of our positions or Doctrines.

The argument I hear against it is that it devalues the established authority of the Church by fostering confusion among non-Catholics about who the True Church is.

What do you think?

I think the claim is true. Also, something you must consider is the blurring the actual reasons for assenting to Catholicism and possibly reducing it to arbitrary assent.

What I mean is the following.

The Catholic Church was accepted by many in the past because the reasons for assenting to it was grounded in reason. Thus, one gave assent through faith to the faith and morals it taught. It was seen as the authority regarding the transcendent. Laws were made based on its teaching. Educational fields, like science, were established or promoted based on its teaching (intelligibility of the Universe, rejection of pagan notions of Gods, Idolatry).

Through ecumenism and this mentality of standing together against the tide of Atheism (with the religious liberty issue today) for an example, we blur these lines. Protestantism at its core is based on Fideism. It requires an arbitrary assent to the Bible after accepting Christ. This becomes quiet the joke if you are a non-believer because one could have accepted any book as the word of God. The Protestant Christian is then just a person who picked the Bible as his/her book and is now trying to sell it to others as the word of God.

But this is not the case with Catholicism.

My main personal reason for opposing ecumenical activity or being critical of it is the above. It just leads people to think of religion as an arbitrary assent of faith. That is bad for Catholics as well since it can lead them to indifferentism (which is a very logical conclusion if all religions are an arbitrary assent).

So what do I see as the mistake here?

I see Vatican II as revealing/stating an obvious truth that all religions do contain parts of the truth. The problem for me was the following pastoral decision on how to do ecumenism. This method of “how to do” ecumenism seems to disregard this very vital point that arbitrary assent is not reasonable. So a person who is non-Catholic (excluding Judaism and to a very high degree, the Orthodox) is engaged in something unreasonable by assenting to their faith.

Now I think the Catholic Church should inform its faithful of that too. This will give the faithful reasons to hold fast to the Church regardless of what they hear. Then they themselves can go out to the world and discuss and point this out to their family members and such and bring them back in to the Church. This is what will bring about ACTUAL conversion.

The idea of a group of leaders getting together and discussing theology gets people nowhere in my opinion. People just argue interpretations. Even if the leaders accepted the Church, why should their followers do the same? Its unreasonable for them to follow/give assent their leaders. Sometime later, they might realize that.

So I feel that the goal of Ecumenism is valid (i.e. so that we may all be united). But the approach is not so appropriate.

 

[Julia_Mae]

why?

Because we aren’t Catholic after we pass, or Hindu or Mormon, and we sure won’t be atheists. There aren’t divisions and religions once we pass, and this temporary way station we are all stuck in, when we start having conversations about “ecumenism,” needs to keep the eternal state in mind. We might have the best roadmap but it doesn’t mean a lot of other folks haven’t got compasses.

 

[Eufrosnia]

Because we aren’t Catholic after we pass, or Hindu or Mormon, and we sure won’t be atheists. There aren’t divisions and religions once we pass, and this temporary way station we are all stuck in, when we start having conversations about “ecumenism” needs to keep the eternal state in mind. We might have the best roadmap but it doesn’t mean a lot f other folks haven’t got compasses.

You do realize that a compass is useless without a map, right? If you didn’t know whats up North, it doesn’t help if you know which directions North

 

[Julia_Mae]

Please stick to the topic or go to another topic. I’m sick of threads being hijacked by comments which have nothing to do with the subject or irrelevant skeletal statements.

If you don’t want to know what people think, perhaps you should not ask, perhaps it would be better to pose a specific question to be addressed. If you don’t understand what I was saying, which I thought was really kind of obvious, then you could just ask. Apparently it wasn’t as obvious as I assumed, which makes me wrong, but doesn’t make me a troll. BTW, attacking me here, instead of asking, ignoring or PMing, makes you the one who hijacked the thread. Because neither I nor whatever you are sick of is the topic. Please see my post above this one for on-topic response to someone who asked.

 

[Julia_Mae]

You do realize that a compass is useless without a map, right?

If it was useless, there wouldn’t be any maps. The compass comes first. “North” is just a word for which way it always points. You make a map by use of the compass.

There are not only no Catholics in Heaven, there are also not only persons who were Catholics while on Earth in Heaven.

 

[Eufrosnia]

If it was useless, there wouldn’t be any maps. The compass comes first. “North” is just a word for which way it always points. You make a map by use of the compass.

I am not sure you understood what I meant. Unless you know that Alaska is up North for an example, it doesn’t help if you are lost and need to find your way to Alaska and all you have is a compass. Do you see what I mean?

There are not only no Catholics in Heaven, there are also not only persons who were Catholics while on Earth in Heaven.

Well, some people like Adam, Eve and Jews like Moses, Elijah etc are definitely in heaven

Unless one answers the GRACE of God and try their best (at which point they will become Catholic), they will not be saved. You don’t go to heaven if you reject God’s grace.

But practically speaking, we don’t know how much grace one has. So WE must become instruments of God’s grace to call everyone into the Catholic Church.

 

[Julia_Mae]

I am not sure you understood what I meant. Unless you know that Alaska is up North for an example, it doesn’t help if you are lost and need to find your way to Alaska and all you have is a compass. Do you see what I mean?

No one knows that unless someone else made a map, that one already had a compass and had to explore to define the parameters and location. People need to be educated enough to know how to understand both the language and the maps or some guy in Saskatchewan is likely to try going north and end up in Finland.

There were people finding God and going to Heaven long before the Incarnation and long before Abram got a new name. The point is all people are imbued by their Creator with enough grace to recognize the Divine, a “compass” that always points them toward God.

 

[Eufrosnia]

No one knows that unless someone else made a map, that one already had a compass and had to explore to define the parameters and location. People need to be educated enough to know how to understand both the language and the maps or some guy in Saskatchewan is likely to try going north and end up in Finland.

There were people finding God and going to Heaven long before the Incarnation and long before Abram got a new name. The point is all people are imbued by their Creator with enough grace to recognize the Divine, a “compass” that always points them toward God.

Ok so lets make this easy. There is a compass lets say withing Julia Doe that points her to God. But, if Julia does not believe in a God or know that her internal pointing of the heart means anything, then its worthless. Similarly, if Julia has been conditioned by society to desire disordered things, Julia might feel that her internal compass is just wrong and start to change it to reflect the disordered views. This is what we refer to as a malformed conscience. So this sort of phenomenon can lead to people who would make claims like “I deeply feel that X is good” when the Church has clearly said its immoral.

Bottom line here is that the fact people have a compass make it easy to teach them to find God. But it in no way means that people will automatically find their way to God. They cannot find God. God has to find them. God does this through her Church which invites all to come and learn more about God.

Now does this mean that those are non-Catholics go to hell? NO! But practically speaking, its irrelevant for our planing whether they do. As far as we are concerned, they have best chances of salvation if they are Catholic. So our duty is to evangelize EVERYONE!

 

[Julia_Mae]

Ok so lets make this easy. There is a compass lets say withing Julia Doe that points her to God. But, if Julia does not believe in a God or know that her internal pointing of the heart means anything, then its worthless.

No, it isn’t. Because it’s going to let him know that certain actions are wrong and guide him toward right action. People aren’t born abandoned by God with no internal guide, the Holy Spirit lives in us all. People turn away from violence and cruelty and respond with kindness and charity because of this regardless of what they might have learned from a book or a preacher.

Bottom line here is that the fact people have a compass make it easy to teach them to find God. But it in no way means that people will automatically find their way to God. They cannot find God. God has to find them. God does this through her Church which invites all to come and learn more about God.

God does this in myriad ways and always has. BTW, we evangelize people not by handing them the CCC, but through our behavior as Christians.

I won’t be responding to any more of your posts, so God bless you.

 

[Eufrosnia]

No, it isn’t. Because it’s going to let him know that certain actions are wrong and guide him toward right action. People aren’t born abandoned by God with no internal guide, the Holy Spirit lives in us all. People turn away from violence and cruelty and respond with kindness and charity because of this regardless of what they might have learned from a book or a preacher.

So some people might feel attracted to the same sex, how do you know if its internal compass speaking?

I am not denying that people have internal compasses. I am just saying that most have malformed consciences. Also, without knowing any merit of the internal compass, its just a feeling for some.

God does this in myriad ways and always has. BTW, we evangelize people not by handing them the CCC, but through our behavior as Christians.

How do you know this? All the first Apostles will outright disagree with you on this one btw

I won’t be responding to any more of your posts, so God bless you.

As you wish.