Is God really all-knowing?

[Spyder1jcd]

Hello All,

All this talk about the possibility of the hurricane being a chastisement by God for our sins got me to thinking: could God really be as all-knowing as we believe?

Consider this: the general term “all-knowing” would, in theory, encompass knowledge of the future, right? Well, if God has knowledge of the future, then He would, in theory, know which of His creations would lead good lives and which wouldn’t. Therefore, He would know which humans would enjoy eternal life with Him, and which ones would endure an eternity in Hell. I carried this thought even further to the point that if God really is “all-knowing,” the theory of double predestination would, in effect, be valid. But the Catholic Church teaches that it is not. Doesn’t that create a paradox with the idea that God has infinite knowledge?

So, either God is creating souls that He knows will eventually end up in Hell and, in effect, is creating souls for no purpose but to end up suffering, or His knowledge actually is falliable, yet still greater than ours.

Your thoughts?

 

[Thomas_More_1]

I’ll give you my summary of Thomas Aquinas’ answer.

Some things are true by necessity, for example that 1+1=2. We have no problem with the idea that God knows all necessary things, even the ones we don’t know.

Some things are true, but they are contingently true. For example, I will be saved or damned. Let us take the hypothetical and say it is decades in the future, I die, am judged, and go to Heaven via purgatory, instead of Hell. This fate of mine didn’t have to turn out that way. So it is only contingently true.

Now, since God knew that I was going to Heaven, didn’t He predestin me? No–and here’s the important distinction. God knows all necessary things, and He knows that they are necessarily true. God also knows all things that are contingently true . . . He just knows that they are contingently true! In fact, he designed the world this way, so that some things happen of necessary causes and other things happen of contingent causes.

Here’s an imperfect analogy: if I am a very close friend to someone, I may start to learn more and more about that person’s background, priorities, desires, and personality. I might get better and better and predicting what that person will do in certain situations.

As I get better at predicting, does that mean that I’m taking away that person’s free will, and by knowing the outcomes, “forcing them”? Of course not! Similarly, God does not force the outcomes of our choices just because He knows them.

Another analogy: God is outside of time, so it is a very human thing to experience creation through time. If you choose a hotdog over a hamburger at a barbecue, and I saw you do it, I would know with 100% certainty that you choose the hotdog. Since I know you chose the hotdog, does that mean that you couldn’t have chosen the hamburger? Sure you could have, I can just look back with hindsight.

Well, God’s knowledge of everything is better than our best hindsight.

 

[Anim8]

Thomas More:

I’ll give you my summary of Thomas Aquinas’ answer.

Some things are true by necessity, for example that 1+1=2. We have no problem with the idea that God knows all necessary things, even the ones we don’t know.

Some things are true, but they are contingently true. For example, I will be saved or damned. Let us take the hypothetical and say it is decades in the future, I die, am judged, and go to Heaven via purgatory, instead of Hell. This fate of mine didn’t have to turn out that way. So it is only contingently true.

Now, since God knew that I was going to Heaven, didn’t He predestin me? No–and here’s the important distinction. God knows all necessary things, and He knows that they are necessarily true. God also knows all things that are contingently true . . . He just knows that they are contingently true! In fact, he designed the world this way, so that some things happen of necessary causes and other things happen of contingent causes.

Here’s an imperfect analogy: if I am a very close friend to someone, I may start to learn more and more about that person’s background, priorities, desires, and personality. I might get better and better and predicting what that person will do in certain situations.

As I get better at predicting, does that mean that I’m taking away that person’s free will, and by knowing the outcomes, “forcing them”? Of course not! Similarly, God does not force the outcomes of our choices just because He knows them.

Another analogy: God is outside of time, so it is a very human thing to experience creation through time. If you choose a hotdog over a hamburger at a barbecue, and I saw you do it, I would know with 100% certainty that you choose the hotdog. Since I know you chose the hotdog, does that mean that you couldn’t have chosen the hamburger? Sure you could have, I can just look back with hindsight.

Well, God’s knowledge of everything is better than our best hindsight.

Well I was gonna give an explanation, but how the hell can I top that?

 

[cynic]

Thomas More:

I’ll give you my summary of Thomas Aquinas’ answer.

Some things are true by necessity, for example that 1+1=2. We have no problem with the idea that God knows all necessary things, even the ones we don’t know.

Some things are true, but they are contingently true. For example, I will be saved or damned. Let us take the hypothetical and say it is decades in the future, I die, am judged, and go to Heaven via purgatory, instead of Hell. This fate of mine didn’t have to turn out that way. So it is only contingently true.

Now, since God knew that I was going to Heaven, didn’t He predestin me? No–and here’s the important distinction. God knows all necessary things, and He knows that they are necessarily true. God also knows all things that are contingently true . . . He just knows that they are contingently true! In fact, he designed the world this way, so that some things happen of necessary causes and other things happen of contingent causes.

Another analogy: God is outside of time, so it is a very human thing to experience creation through time. If you choose a hotdog over a hamburger at a barbecue, and I saw you do it, I would know with 100% certainty that you choose the hotdog. Since I know you chose the hotdog, does that mean that you couldn’t have chosen the hamburger? Sure you could have, I can just look back with hindsight.

Well, God’s knowledge of everything is better than our best hindsight.

Notice the lack of responses to this topic

Free will only has a meaning if the choices that result from the excercise the free will are not already known. If they are known to God, then the fact that in theory we could have chosen a different path is meaningless. That would turn free will into nothing. It’s practicaly the same as pre destination because, assuming that the future is known, God made us, and in making us knew the path we would take given the choices faced in our lives. He might not directly interfere to ‘cause’ us to do this or that, but that is not really the point.

There are a few individuals in the Bible who appear to sin by design to fulfill prophecy such as The Pharoah, Esau, Judas… although they could have in theory chosen differently, that didn’t mean much since they could never really have…, I don’t understand that…
Thomas More:

Here’s an imperfect analogy: if I am a very close friend to someone, I may start to learn more and more about that person’s background, priorities, desires, and personality. I might get better and better and predicting what that person will do in certain situations.

As I get better at predicting, does that mean that I’m taking away that person’s free will, and by knowing the outcomes, “forcing them”? Of course not! Similarly, God does not force the outcomes of our choices just because He knows them.

.

the analogy is flawed because God is our maker, not an observer predicting outcomes.

 

[InSearchOfGod]

I think Mr. More explained it brilliantly! I had trouble with this same concept a few years ago, but just about a year ago, it made sense. And I didn’t even need Aquinas! That must be a good sign for me.

cynic:

Free will only has a meaning if the choices that result from the excercise the free will are not already known.

What? Where do you get that? Free will is the ability to choose between right from wrong with nobody forcing you either way. God may know what your choice will be, but how does that take away the fact that you know you have a choice? Free will isn’t the ability to surprise God!

cynic:

the analogy is flawed because God is our maker, not an observer predicting outcomes.

Keep in mind that God also created time. In Heaven, there is no time. God knows all past, present, and future all at once, because they are all together in His presence. I hardly understand what a world without time would be like, but that’s because I’m still in search of God. So our sense of the future being undetermined is a bit of an illusion. It is determined . . . by us.

Here’s an example. I lay down three cards from a deck of cards on the table, an ace, a queen and a king, and I ask you to choose one. I write down my prediction of what you will choose and seal it in an envelope. Did I just take away your ability to choose? No, of course not! But if you choose the king, and my prediction was that you would choose the king, that didn’t take away your ability to choose.

 

[john_doran]

cynic:

Free will only has a meaning if the choices that result from the excercise the free will are not already known.

why should anyone believe this?

choices are free if they are not determined. that is, they’re free if there is no conjunction of events or true propositions that entail the making of the choice; or, if you prefer, if there is at least one possible world identical to this one up to the moment of the choice, except where the choice is not made.

what does knowledge have to do with anything?

cynic:

If they are known to God, then the fact that in theory we could have chosen a different path is meaningless.

how so?

 

[cynic]

InSearchOfGod:

I think Mr. More explained it brilliantly! I had trouble with this same concept a few years ago, but just about a year ago, it made sense. And I didn’t even need Aquinas! That must be a good sign for me.

What? Where do you get that? Free will is the ability to choose between right from wrong with nobody forcing you either way. God may know what your choice will be, but how does that take away the fact that you know you have a choice? Free will isn’t the ability to surprise God!

Keep in mind that God also created time. In Heaven, there is no time. God knows all past, present, and future all at once, because they are all together in His presence. I hardly understand what a world without time would be like, but that’s because I’m still in search of God. So our sense of the future being undetermined is a bit of an illusion. It is determined . . . by us.

Here’s an example. I lay down three cards from a deck of cards on the table, an ace, a queen and a king, and I ask you to choose one. I write down my prediction of what you will choose and seal it in an envelope. Did I just take away your ability to choose? No, of course not! But if you choose the king, and my prediction was that you would choose the king, that didn’t take away your ability to choose.

I never said God takes away our free choice. But if God is all knowing, and he is our maker, then he knows the choices we will make. He made souls knowing that they would end up in hell, because of the choices he knew those people would make. He did not take away our ability to chose, sure, but he still finds fault in his creations knowing what they would do before they did it, knowing at the moment of their creation all that they would do. In effect creating them to either end up in hell or heaven presumably with some greater purpose in mind. Free will, or determining your own fate, whatever you wan to call it, can’t exist in this situation…I can’t believe that God knows the future, or at least knows who will be saved or who won’t, because that makes our existence meaningless, our choices meaningless, right and wrong meaningless.

 

[InSearchOfGod]

You are still determining your destiny, even if God already knows what it is.

After you make a choice, do you deny that it was really a choice? Because after you make it, you know what choice you made.

What is our future will become our past. We determine our future just as we determined our past. We don’t know the future, but we do know the past. Would you deny that you made real choices and decisions in your past, just because you know those decisions?

Again, in God’s eyes, time doesn’t exist. There is no past, present, and future. (This is rather impossible for us to imagine, not being in Heaven and all.) There’s just infinity all at once. He didn’t create us to find out what we would choose, He created us so that we could choose.

 

[cynic]

InSearchOfGod:

Again, in God’s eyes, time doesn’t exist. There is no past, present, and future. (This is rather impossible for us to imagine, not being in Heaven and all.) There’s just infinity all at once. He didn’t create us to find out what we would choose, He created us so that we could choose.

I’m not sure where you actually get this from. Your own thoughts?
If the future is known to God then why bother saving us, why bother with anything… our choice means nothing because it’s dependant on our nature, of which God is the author
If this is true then it’s like writing a computer programme and letting it run.

 

[But_for_Grace]

God didn’t create us for anything other than love, to choose to have a relationship with us. So what if he bears paticiently with those who are intended for destruction, it is so those of us desitine for mercy can know all the better the wonders of his grace.

 

[Thomas_More_1]

Free will only has a meaning if the choices that result from the excercise the free will are not already known.

I agree that this is very, very tempting. But the whole point of Thomas Aquinas’ argument is that this assertion, which seems so right, and makes free will so hard to believe in while believing in an omniscient God at the same time, isn’t actually correct.

So if you just assert that free will cannot exist with God’s foreknowledge, you are denying yourself a full examination of his argument.

the analogy is flawed because God is our maker, not an observer predicting outcomes.

The analogy is imperfect, but relevant because the common argument asserts that with God’s knowledge, free will is not possible.

Remember:

If a philosophical system has two propositions, and they are in contradiction, the system cannot stand. But if two propositions really, really seem like they are in contradiction, that’s not enough to make the system collapse. They have to actually contradict.

Free will is very hard to believe in if there is a God who knows what we will choose. But it simply cannot be proven that the two ideas contradict.

The idea that God’s knowledge has to determine something and makes free will impossible is incorrect, but very tempting because we can’t help but see God’s way of knowing as similar to our way of knowing something, but it’s not. It’s of a totally different level. His way of knowing everything is closer to my way of knowing the immediate past, than it is to my being able to predict the future. If I could predict how someone acts in the future, you’d assume I was controlling him. But what if I just gave a play-by-play? Then you wouldn’t assume that at all. So knowledge does not imply control, and that’s what you asserted in that first line I quoted.

About the fact that God is Creator: remember that Aquinas’ states that God created everything (of course), and knew the sequence of events that would result. Some of those events were necessary (had to happen), and some were contingent (resulting from choices). The things that are necessary, God knows as necessary, the things that are contingent, God knows contingently.

In summary: God doesn’t know like we do. We can only predict things we have some control over. God knows everything about even those things He chooses not to control directly, like human choice. He’s cool that way.

 

[cynic]

Thomas More:

Free will is very hard to believe in if there is a God who knows what we will choose. But it simply cannot be proven that the two ideas contradict.

The idea that God’s knowledge has to determine something and makes free will impossible is incorrect, but very tempting because we can’t help but see God’s way of knowing as similar to our way of knowing something, but it’s not. It’s of a totally different level. His way of knowing everything is closer to my way of knowing the immediate past, than it is to my being able to predict the future. If I could predict how someone acts in the future, you’d assume I was controlling him. But what if I just gave a play-by-play? Then you wouldn’t assume that at all. So knowledge does not imply control, and that’s what you asserted in that first line I quoted.
.

.

Knowledge does not imply control (was that even part of the argument?), but it does imply pre-determination, which I think was the OP point. If he knows what we will choose, then how much weight can the choice hold? What meaning does it have?, since our choice is known, because he knows our nature, and he created our nature…so who cares what you or I choose, It’s no triumph, and it’s bound to the idea that God created us to glorify himself, that all this works towards some final goal (Gods own glorification, when satan wil be destroyed, the kingdom of heaven will come…I’m not much into this stuff), that our individual souls only matter in asmuch as they contribute to this end.

All this doesn’t answers another point : how can you find fault something if you created it or initiated it, and knew the final result? You must have created it FOR the final result. How can God blame sinners, or reject them, while knowing before their creation, what their destiny will be? If he knows the future then everything we will be, must be for a REASON. Evil - or what leads to evil - must have been purposely created as a contrast to good, for that reason. Why did he create those who would end up in hell - to make the faithfull seem ‘more good’. If the future is known then the “don’t blame me, he made me this way” argument starts to take effect.

all this is why I can’t believe our destiny is known…

 

[Island_Oak]

As a side question to all this “what did God know and when did he know it…” is the more pressing “Why did he bother?” If you know the score before the game begins, why sit in the stands for 9 innings drinking stale beer? If he can wrestle the devil down with both wings tied behind his back, why engage in “the struggle” for eons? Why generate souls who will be tortured in Hell for eternity just for playing the game poorly? Didn’t he have anything better to do for 50 million years than watch re-runs of what he already knew? If nothing else, that alone should convince the feminists that God is a man! And finally…if God represents/posesses perfect “truth,” why hasn’t man EVER been able to recognize it universally, agree upon it, follow it?

 

[batteddy]

There IS a double positive predestination, just NOT a double positive UNCONDITIONAL predestination (the calvinist heresy).

There is a positive, unconditional election, and a positive, but conditional reprobation.

 

[kremisos]

If God made us in his image, then why do you assume that he knows the future? The future does not even exist yet. While it’s possible that God does in fact know the future, what difference does it really make? We do not. The future is our concept of defining points in time. It has not occured yet, and is only an ideaology. Five seconds after you read this, it will be the present. What do you gain by assuming that God knows the future, or by wondering why he does what he does? He is perfect, all powerful, and all knowing. Does this not also make him able to keep knowledge of the future from himself? Are there not more pressing matters for us humans than worrying about what God knows or what the future holds?

There are people starving and dying in this world. There are corrupt forces, authorities, and churches that blaspheme the holy name of God. Their are children killing children, and our planet is full of every kind of evil imaginable. People gossip, slander, and judge, yet make no efforts to worry about their own lives. Our very lives are consumed with every worldly distraction there is. Talk of God is shunned in the public eye. People are ashamed to confess that Christ is their savior, and act accordingly in their daily lives.

How many people are more worried about saving money instead of saving souls? Does God not provide us with everything we need? We are a wanting race, and we’ve been taught that sinning is ok, as long as you offer an apology. We are walking heretics. How many people did you spread the message of Christ to today?

Oh wait, I must’ve forgot. All of our prophets are insane and locked in asylums where they’re heavily medicated and restrained for disturbing the peace that we are so accustomed to. Do you have any idea what happens in these places? Try being medicated, having horrible hallucinations as a result not only from these medications but also from your weakened mind that is more vulnerable to the attacks of demons. You wouldn’t know what demons are though would you? They only attack the faithful. Try being physically disabled and unable to take care of yourself for a year of your life for expressing your freedom of speech and religion. Try being beaten down and humiliated and told you’re insane for trusting in God instead of the world. Try losing everything you had and everything you could’ve been for having faith.

Will God hear my cries and the cries of the others who have suffered the afflictions and poverty that I have and worse? He already has. 9-11 and New Orleans are nothing compared to the vengeance he will have on this world. There will be no forgiveness of sins when Christ comes again. He made that sacrifice for us when he died on the cross.

HEB 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

The only question of importance is what can I or anyone else do to make this world a better place before he gets here? He is the only reason we live. Trusting in money, the world, flesh, and all else that is perishable will only bring the fires of hell.

 

[Thomas_More_1]

cynic:

Knowledge does not imply control (was that even part of the argument?), but it does imply pre-determination, which I think was the OP point. If he knows what we will choose, then how much weight can the choice hold? What meaning does it have?, since our choice is known, because he knows our nature, and he created our nature…so who cares what you or I choose, It’s no triumph, and it’s bound to the idea that God created us to glorify himself, that all this works towards some final goal (Gods own glorification, when satan wil be destroyed, the kingdom of heaven will come…I’m not much into this stuff), that our individual souls only matter in asmuch as they contribute to this end.

Knowledge does not imply predetermination. You are asserting that it does, and not engaging the argument that shows otherwise. Please try to work through the argument that since by knowing the past we do not determine the past, knowledge cannot imply determination!

cynic:

All this doesn’t answers another point : how can you find fault something if you created it or initiated it, and knew the final result? You must have created it FOR the final result.

Not necessarily! Again, this is a restatement of a variation on the original question. The whole reason for Thomas Aquinas’ argument is that just because it seems that God’s knowledge and power means that he directly intended everything that occurs in his creation subsequent to the moment of creation, does not mean it is so.

kremisos:

The only question of importance is what can I or anyone else do to make this world a better place before he gets here?

I agree that this controvery is not of utmost importance if we understand what the Church teaches about salvation. But the idea that the whole Gospel can be reduced to making this world a better place before he gets here . . . well, I’ll only buy it if you define “better place” as “oriented to the Kingdom of God” and not in some materialistic/socialistic way.

 

[Della]

I think in all this wrangling over terms we are forgetting what a gift sentience is. That we can know that we are, and plan for the future, and desire to improve the lot of all mankind is God’s gift to us.

He created us to share in his life–the life of understanding and of love and of choosing. Even those in hell still enjoy awareness of who and what they are, of the choices they made, and that they decided they didn’t want God in their lives. That was their choice whether God knew they would make it or not when they were conceived in the womb. But, he would not deny them the opportunity to be alive, to know, to love, to choose.

That is the great wonder, glory, and awesome responsibility we are all given. Instead of thinking of God as a meanie or as a dictator of destiny, let us see what he really is–a giver of life, of reason, of joy, of love who loves us so much he lets us decide our own fate instead of treating us like puppets.

 

[kremisos]

Thomas More:

I agree that this controvery is not of utmost importance if we understand what the Church teaches about salvation. But the idea that the whole Gospel can be reduced to making this world a better place before he gets here . . . well, I’ll only buy it if you define “better place” as “oriented to the Kingdom of God” and not in some materialistic/socialistic way.

Materialism and socialism do not go hand in hand. While I do think that some sociallist theories are beneficial for man, I do not think that a pure socialist government is. Children need a good education and discipline. They need to be taught morality from an early age. In a country that has the freedom of religon, they can at least be taught the basics of how to treat other people and get along in the world. They should be of sound mind being taught not only morality, but ethics, reason, logic, and discipline. They should be always challenged and not left in a system that believes in age progressional learning. This leaves too much room for those who are behind to be left behind, and those who are too far ahead to become idle. They should be taught skills that will aid in their progress as human beings. No man, woman, or child should be without food, shelter, clothing, medical care, and the oppurtunity to progress.

Spiritual leaders should be in fact spiritual, and aiding in their spiritual growth. They should be teaching them matters of love, and caring for their fellow man. They should be teaching them how they can be more godly, and live a life that is examplary of what they teach. Their daily lives should be consumed by zeal for God. They should be teaching how to live by the Spirit, and taking care of the poor and the sick. A life of servitude should be just that. Being a slave to God does not mean pursuing your own interests and will. A good slave listens to his master at all times, and does not set himself above other people as an authority on anything. God is the only authority, and by his authority through men living by the Spirit we are all equals that need to be encouraged. For those lacking the Spirit, they need to be encouraged to live by the Spirit and rebuked so they might gain power over their sinful nature.

While, I understand this life is a matter of choice, we should be doing all that we can to ensure that this choice is seen as the only choice that matters. It is a very narrow path that leads to the Kingdom of God.

There are only two things in life that a man must know. Where on that path he is, and where on that path he should be. Everything else is just in the way of this purpose.

 

[InSearchOfGod]

cynic:

I’m not sure where you actually get this from. Your own thoughts?

Well, certainly partly from my own thoughts. After all, that is the only true source of faith: ourselves! This would probably make an interesting spin-off thread, which I’ll post later tonight if nobody else does.