Is God really outside of creation? Understanding the trinity

[Ignatiusmeansfire]

I have been pummeling a question as of late.

The church teaches (as far as my understanding) that God is outside his creation. But, looking at the Trinity i have a hard time complying with this teaching. The father, the son and the holy spirit is the same entity. And when the holy spirit comes into a person is it not a part of that person? Hence there is a fraction of God in this person and hence in his creation? Also is the holy spirit not everywhere around us?

Further, outside of that argument. When you look at a beautiful sunset or the rain falling on a lake, can you not see God? I definitely can see marks of God. But maybe this is just the presence of the author in his works? In the same way you can get to know an author through his books?

Please help me understand or share your own thoughts!

Best regards

 

[commenter]

The church teaches (as far as my understanding) that God is outside his creation. But, looking at the Trinity i have a hard time complying with this teaching. The father, the son and the holy spirit is the same entity. And when the holy spirit comes into a person is it not a part of that person? Hence there is a fraction of God in this person and hence in his creation? Also is the holy spirit not everywhere around us?

Further, outside of that argument. When you look at a beautiful sunset or the rain falling on a lake, can you not see God? I definitely can see marks of God. But maybe this is just the presence of the author in his works? In the same way you can get to know an author through his books?

Might be more accurate to say God is independent of his creation. He is not dependent on it, does not have to enter it, ever. But He can, if he chooses.

God can, when He wants, influence persons. He gives Commandments to a population, He gives inspiration to an individual, He gives both the sunset and the eyes to see it.

I agree with your analogy of an author. But then the skeptics claim this author wrote in both St Francis and also Hitler. So remember the author also wrote in Free Will.

Fortunately we can usually judge which parts of the author’s work used Free Will to reflect the author, and which did not.

 

[Kei]

I’d refrain from saying “fraction” of God, etc. All of Creation is in Him, subsistence and dependent upon Him.

 

[TheLittleLady]

God the Son is fully human, not fractionally human to add on to your good comment. He is also fully Divine.

 

[Dan_Defender]

God existed before the created universe so it follows He exists outside of it. All things we see depend on God; they begin and continue to exist by the power of God. As for the Holy Spirit, He can dwell in us and guide us but does not become a part of us, we always retain our free will in this life.

 

[Mintaka]

Actually, God is omnipresent in the material universe. He is also outside all created things, including time and space, dwelling in unapproachable light.

St. Gregory the Great has a famous passage about this. Will copy and paste.

 

[Mintaka]

Okay, here’s the bit. It’s from Moralia in Job, Book II, chapter 20-21. The translation is an old UK one.

"How is it possible to ‘go forth’ from Him, Who is everywhere present? Whence it is that He says, ‘Do not I fill heaven and earth?’ (Jer. 23, 24) Hence it is written concerning His Spirit, ‘For the Spirit of the Lord filleth the world.’ (Wisd. 1, 7) Hence it is that His Wisdom saith, ‘I alone compassed the circuit of heaven.’ [Sirach 24, 5] Hence it is that the Lord says again, ‘Heaven is My throne, and the earth is My footstool.’ (Isa. 66, 1)

And again it is written of Him, ‘He meteth out heaven with the span, and comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure’ (Is. 40, 12. Vulg.), for He abides both within and without the Throne whereon He rules. By His ‘meting out heaven with a span, and comprehending the earth in a measure,’ He is shewn to be Himself on every side beyond the circuit of all things which He has created. For that which is enclosed within is from without held in by that which encloseth it.

By the throne, therefore, whereon He is seated, it is meant that He is within and above; by the ‘measure,’ wherewith, ‘He comprehends,’ He is represented to be beyond and beneath; for whereas the same Being abides within all things, without all things, above all things, beneath all things, He is both above by virtue of His Dominion, and beneath by virtue of His Upholding; without, by His Immensity, and within, by His Subtlety; ruling from on high, holding together from below; encompassing without, penetrating within; not abiding by one part above, by another beneath, or by one part without, and by another part within, but One and the Same, and wholly every where, upholding in ruling, ruling in upholding; penetrating in encompassing, encompassing in penetrating; whence He ruleth from above, thence upholding from beneath, and whence He enfoldeth from without, thence filling up within; ruling on high without disquietude, upholding below without effort; within, penetrating without attenuation, without, encompassing without expansion. So that He is both lower and higher, without place; He is wider without breadth; He is more subtle without rarity.

Whither, then, is there any ‘going forth’ from Him, Who being through the bulk of a body nowhere present, is through a Substance unlimited, nowhere absent?

 

[JerryZ]

Excellent replays!! all of them.

 

[mdgspencer]

God is outside of creation. But God is also in creation.
You could draw two circles. One circle stands for creation. A much larger circle stands for God. The smaller circle, creation is inside the much greater circle, which represents God.

At one time there was no smaller circle, standing for creation. God was entirely outside creation, because there was no creation. But after creation was made by God, God was there too, because God is everywhere.