Is God Reasonable?

[Mike_tn]

The Church teaches that the faith stands up to reason and makes sense. The faith is about God and God’s relationship with man, and if the faith is reasonable then God must be also. However, I do not find God reasonable. And some places in scripture testify to this, that God’s ways are not mans’ ways. For example if a 55 year old man has a painful experience that results in his conversion after a life of sin. Then the same man, after the initial excitement of his conversion, he looks back on his life and scratches his head about all the wasted life, and knows he will never recover to the state and position of his peers who never wasted their lives with misuse. The man wonders why God hadn’t given him a similar chastisement when he was a teenager so his life would have been much more useful and he wouldn’t stick out like a sore thumb in society, a social cripple so to speak for the rest of his days. The man decides God is unreasonable, which is in accord with this experience and the teaching that God does what he wills, and the created are in no position to question their Creator. So why does the Church lean on reason when bringing the faith to others? The Church should lean on God who is outside of time, all knowing and whose presence is felt everywhere. People have none of these attributes. People are reasonable and if reasonableness worked to keep me holy then I would only need people. Is God reasonable or is he not? Because if he is then he is exactly like us. If he isn’t then why does the Church say that the faith is reasonable?

 

[dshix]

The Church teaches that the faith stands up to reason and makes sense. The faith is about God and God’s relationship with man, and if the faith is reasonable then God must be also. However, I do not find God reasonable. And some places in scripture testify to this, that God’s ways are not mans’ ways. For example if a 55 year old man has a painful experience that results in his conversion after a life of sin. Then the same man, after the initial excitement of his conversion, he looks back on his life and scratches his head about all the wasted life, and knows he will never recover to the state and position of his peers who never wasted their lives with misuse. The man wonders why God hadn’t given him a similar chastisement when he was a teenager so his life would have been much more useful and he wouldn’t stick out like a sore thumb in society, a social cripple so to speak for the rest of his days. The man decides God is unreasonable, which is in accord with this experience and the teaching that God does what he wills, and the created are in no position to question their Creator. So why does the Church lean on reason when bringing the faith to others? The Church should lean on God who is outside of time, all knowing and whose presence is felt everywhere. People have none of these attributes. People are reasonable and if reasonableness worked to keep me holy then I would only need people. Is God reasonable or is he not? Because if he is then he is exactly like us. If he isn’t then why does the Church say that the faith is reasonable?

Your last three sentences stuck out to me, particularly, “Because if he is [reasonable] then he is exactly like us.”

There are two reasons for your confusion. Firstly, you are thinking of “reasonableness” as a purely human attribute. This is not the case, as all good things and good attributes come ultimately from God, and any part we may have in any of them is but a shadow of God’s perfection.

Second, you are mixing up the “reasonableness” of the faith with with problem of evil. When we say that the faith is reasonable, we mean that it is in conformity with the natural law, and that all things within it are in conformity with each other, that is, there are no contradictions within it.

Now, God often does things for reasons we cannot comprehend, simply because we are not omniscient, as He is, and because, as you said, God’s ways are not man’s ways.

Thus, if a person believes that God was “unreasonable” because he failed to do this or that in this world at an opportune time, which would have fixed a great number of problems, he misunderstands the way God works. God never acts overtly, and never forces us to do His will. He opens doors, He provides opportunities, but whether or not we take those opportunities, whether or not we act on them, is entirely up to us.

 

[Beryllos]

People are not reasonable, at least not all the time. If we were, there might be a lot less trouble in the world. The way I look at it, God knows all truth, but we know only a small part of it. God’s reason is perfect. Our reason is imperfect. When we think “if I were God, I would have done things differently,” it is only because we do not know everything that God does.

Edit: Let me try again… It is not only because of our imperfect knowledge. Our reason (or logic) is also imperfect.

I think dshix said something like that.

 

[fhansen]

The Church teaches that the faith stands up to reason and makes sense. The faith is about God and God’s relationship with man, and if the faith is reasonable then God must be also. However, I do not find God reasonable. And some places in scripture testify to this, that God’s ways are not mans’ ways. For example if a 55 year old man has a painful experience that results in his conversion after a life of sin. Then the same man, after the initial excitement of his conversion, he looks back on his life and scratches his head about all the wasted life, and knows he will never recover to the state and position of his peers who never wasted their lives with misuse. The man wonders why God hadn’t given him a similar chastisement when he was a teenager so his life would have been much more useful and he wouldn’t stick out like a sore thumb in society, a social cripple so to speak for the rest of his days. The man decides God is unreasonable, which is in accord with this experience and the teaching that God does what he wills, and the created are in no position to question their Creator. So why does the Church lean on reason when bringing the faith to others? The Church should lean on God who is outside of time, all knowing and whose presence is felt everywhere. People have none of these attributes. People are reasonable and if reasonableness worked to keep me holy then I would only need people. Is God reasonable or is he not? Because if he is then he is exactly like us. If he isn’t then why does the Church say that the faith is reasonable?

Your post leaves no room for the fact that the 55 year old has *free will-*as if he could never have changed earlier in life-or as if those who *did *change couldn’t have done otherwise themselves. The abuse of free will is the problem-the cause of sin, and God,-communion with Him-is the answer. Some people have a better lot in life to begin with while others are horribly deprived-but God is reasonable according to Church teachings-judging us based on what we do with what we’ve been given. The only thing that counts is where we are now-not where we’ve been. We all have regrets but today is just the beginning of what God has in store for us.

 

[Mike_tn]

Firstly, you are thinking of “reasonableness” as a purely human attribute. This is not the case, as all good things and good attributes come ultimately from God, and any part we may have in any of them is but a shadow of God’s perfection.

OK I agree, God has to have a trait if it is in us and it is also a good thing. God must be reasonable. (Very clever.)

Second, you are mixing up the “reasonableness” of the faith with with problem of evil. When we say that the faith is reasonable, we mean that it is in conformity with the natural law, and that all things within it are in conformity with each other, that is, there are no contradictions within it.

Unclear on my mixing with the problem of evil. Clear on what the faith being reasonable means. Plus even without that, after establishing point #1, where we found that reasonableness is a God thing, so when the faith exhibits the same quality, that makes total sense, it agrees.

Now, God often does things for reasons we cannot comprehend, simply because we are not omniscient, as He is, and because, as you said, God’s ways are not man’s ways.

Thus, if a person believes that God was “unreasonable” because he failed to do this or that in this world at an opportune time, which would have fixed a great number of problems, he misunderstands the way God works. God never acts overtly, and never forces us to do His will. He opens doors, He provides opportunities, but whether or not we take those opportunities, whether or not we act on them, is entirely up to us.

I accept this logically. It could be this way. I’m not sure I like it in action in my life. And I’m not sure it agrees with an all-knowing God. Because God could make better opportunity that we are sure to take if he knows how we tick throughout.

 

[Mike_tn]

People are not reasonable, at least not all the time. If we were, there might be a lot less trouble in the world. The way I look at it, God knows all truth, but we know only a small part of it. God’s reason is perfect. Our reason is imperfect. When we think “if I were God, I would have done things differently,” it is only because we do not know everything that God does.

Edit: Let me try again… It is not only because of our imperfect knowledge. Our reason (or logic) is also imperfect.

I think dshix said something like that.

Yes, God pities us. And for good reasons. Sometimes were a not too bright though we want to be when sitting calmly in the mornings. But if he pitied us even more could he not provide better opportunity for a man to turn to him? He’s all-everything. He could do it. But then again in my imperfection I may not see something and thinking that God could pity us more than he does, to provide better opportunity to turn to him, is an ignorant thought on my part.

 

[Mike_tn]

Your post leaves no room for the fact that the 55 year old has *free will-*as if he could never have changed earlier in life-or as if those who *did *change couldn’t have done otherwise themselves. The abuse of free will is the problem-the cause of sin, and God,-communion with Him-is the answer. Some people have a better lot in life to begin with while others are horribly deprived-but God is reasonable according to Church teachings-judging us based on what we do with what we’ve been given. The only thing that counts is where we are now-not where we’ve been. We all have regrets but today is just the beginning of what God has in store for us.

Thank you. just the beginning, doesn’t take away reality for the man but it is a Hopeful reply.

Your reply reminds me of what stirred my question to the surface in the first place. Last night I watched a movie I never saw before. It’s called East of Eden. The 1955 version with James Dean, based on Steinbecks novel which I never read. The movie was so very well made and disturbing to the spirit on many levels all the way through and then at the end when a character compares the event to Cain & Able, that was over the top. It really made me think. I felt sorry for the character who represented Cain and I don’t think the movie tried to make the bad guy look good the way they do today in films and cartoons. It seems like Cain got a bad deal to begin with and God let it go and go and go, on and on. In the film he tried to do good, worked hard at it, thinking it was good, then when compared to his brother he got slammed. God could have woke him up sooner before he killed his brother. Of course this relates to our own lives and the 55 year old man mentioned. Perhaps Cain was not lost. Perhaps the pain everyone felt at the end is much less the Jesus ever had going to the cross. It’s a huge burden though. Can’t say I like it. The burden seems too big.

 

[DelsonJacobs]

The understanding that the teachings of the faith are reasonable cannot be understood without another important and vital facet of our faith: that the truth about God also transcends the limits of human reasoning.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches:

Though human reason is, strictly speaking, truly capable by its own natural power and light of attaining to a true and certain knowledge of the one personal God…there are many obstacles which prevent reason from the effective and fruitful use of this inborn faculty…

This is why man stands in need of being enlightened by God’s revelation, not only about those things that exceed his understanding, but also “about those religious and moral truths which of themselves are not beyond the grasp of human reason, so that even in the present condition of the human race, they can be known by all men with ease, with firm certainty and with no admixture of error”.–CCC 37-38.

While you ask a good question, you cannot limit your understanding to such a situation to human reasoning alone. Where reason cannot go, revelation bridges the gap. Not everything we are asked to believe in by God makes sense to human reasoning.This is where faith comes in.

It is reasonable to believe in God because there are physical proofs available to all. (See Romans 1:19-20; Acts 14:15, 17; 17:27-28; and Wisdom 13:1-9) But human reason can’t tell us what God is thinking or instruct us according to his law.

Is it not written: “We speak God’s wisdom, mysterious [and] hidden?” And from what is it hidden but from human reasoning without revelation from God?

For “no one knows what pertains to God except the Spirit of God.” Human reasoning without God’s Spirit is useless when it comes to understanding God. “The natural person [the one who uses human reasoning alone] does not accept what pertains to the Spirit of God, for to him it is foolishness, and he cannot understand it, because it is judged spiritually [and not by human reason alone]. The spiritual person, however, can judge everything but is not subject to judgment by anyone. For ‘who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to counsel him?’ But we have the mind of Christ.”–1 Corinthians, chapter 2.

You will likely be able to develop many scenarios like this one that will puzzle you, but they only do because God is greater than what you are able to conceive by human reason alone. Just have faith that God is always just, always does what is right, and is also Love Personified.

 

[Mike_tn]

While you ask a good question, you cannot limit your understanding to such a situation to human reasoning alone. Where reason cannot go, revelation bridges the gap. Not everything we are asked to believe in by God makes sense to human reasoning.This is where faith comes in.

You will likely be able to develop many scenarios like this one that will puzzle you, but they only do because God is greater than what you are able to conceive by human reason alone. Just have faith that God is always just, always does what is right, and is also Love Personified.

I don’t feel I made much spiritual progress, meaning improvements, in recent years. No gains lately. So it feels like I’m just hanging on, surviving, and for what? Heaven is not in my sights strong like it used to be though I’m not retreating or falling further away either. So I look at all the broken things around me all the time and start to think that’s all there is. And that it could have been different. And I uncover even more flaws in myself. I hate that. Seems endless. I mean all the filth under my fingernails. And get tired of trying.

But I will do as you and others suggest. Not give up. Keep hope, thin as it is.

 

[Beryllos]

Yes, God pities us.

No, I don’t think so. God knows us, better than we know ourselves. He created us. He knows our nature. God loves us. God is merciful. God desires our salvation. Where does pity come in? I think it is a human invention.

Last night I watched a movie I never saw before. It’s called East of Eden.

Here’s another movie suggestion: Today I watched Holes. The main character is unjustly convicted of a crime and sent to a cruel juvenile labor camp. In the end, this becomes the key to his growth, lifting the family curse, and discovering the lost family fortune. That is fiction, but in real life as well, adversity often leads to growth and gains.

I don’t feel I made much spiritual progress, … Seems endless.

Some saints felt that way. Dark night of the soul. Spiritual dryness. We must persevere in faith.

And that it could have been different.

You have to get over that. What’s done is done. Your present life is what it is. Look forward, not behind. Where do we go from here? How can we make things better? There is always reason to hope.

God bless you! May you have a blessed Christmas. May the Holy Spirit assist and guide you always toward faith, hope, and love.

 

[DelsonJacobs]

I don’t feel I made much spiritual progress, meaning improvements, in recent years. No gains lately. So it feels like I’m just hanging on, surviving, and for what? Heaven is not in my sights strong like it used to be though I’m not retreating or falling further away either. So I look at all the broken things around me all the time and start to think that’s all there is. And that it could have been different. And I uncover even more flaws in myself. I hate that. Seems endless. I mean all the filth under my fingernails. And get tired of trying.

But I will do as you and others suggest. Not give up. Keep hope, thin as it is.

Well just remember, if God let’s us fall down a hole it’s because that where He plans to meet us.

Also if you feel like things are endless and you feel tired of trying, as you put it, it may not be that you are having any spiritual problems at all. That may a sign of what is known as “unipolar disorder,” or what used to be called “clinical depression” (though it is still often referred to as MDD, “major depressive disorder”). If this is the case you can’t pull yourself out of it, not on your own that is.

Unipolar disorder occurs when certain chemicals in the frontal lobe of the brain (the ones responsible for a positive attitude and outlook) misfire and don’t reach their target. These brain chemicals have to make a literal jump from one neuron to another in order for us to keep feeling positive. When they fail to hit their target on a regular basis, the ability to feel positive about oneself can seem like a distant experience.

Feeling tied of trying and being down on oneself as you describe are classic symptoms. Where once it was attributed to literally undergoing a depressing situation, it is now known to often be spontaneous.

Whatever it is, these feelings aren’t part of what one should expect in daily spiritual life. You should see a physician and discuss this. Unipolar disorder is totally reversible, sometimes within minutes of treatment.