Is God the cause of the evil in the world?

[The_Revelator]

The standard answer to this question is NO… because God gave us free will, and so we’re the ones responsible for the evil in the world. But this overlooks one very important factor, and that is that we only control the intent, but we have no control over the outcome. It may be my intent for example to win the lottery, and I may take action toward that end, but I have no control over whether I actually win the lottery or not. Or it may be my intent to be the greatest athlete of all time, and I may take action toward that end, but that doesn’t mean that I’ll come anywhere near to achieving that goal. Or it may be my intent to raise children that grow up to become happy, healthy, successful human beings, and I may take action toward that end, but that doesn’t mean that I’ll end up with children at all, much less the children that I intended.

So when it comes to free will, we only control the intent, but we don’t control the outcome, something else does. It may be my intent to do good, or it may be my intent to do evil, but my intent doesn’t determine the outcome, something else does. But what is it that determines the outcome? Is it fate? Is it chance? Is it sheer dumb luck? Or is it God?

It would seem that intent alone isn’t enough to create the evil in the world, even when combined with action, intent isn’t a sufficient cause for an outcome.

But if our intent alone isn’t sufficient to cause the evil in the world, then what does? Logic would seem to dictate that if we don’t control the outcome, then it’s either up to chance, or it’s up to God.

 

[Vico]

The standard answer to this question is NO… because God gave us free will, and so we’re the ones responsible for the evil in the world. But this overlooks one very important factor, and that is that we only control the intent, but we have no control over the outcome. It may be my intent for example to win the lottery, and I may take action toward that end, but I have no control over whether I actually win the lottery or not. Or it may be my intent to be the greatest athlete of all time, and I may take action toward that end, but that doesn’t mean that I’ll come anywhere near to achieving that goal. Or it may be my intent to raise children that grow up to become happy, healthy, successful human beings, and I may take action toward that end, but that doesn’t mean that I’ll end up with children at all, much less the children that I intended.

So when it comes to free will, we only control the intent, but we don’t control the outcome, something else does. It may be my intent to do good, or it may be my intent to do evil, but my intent doesn’t determine the outcome, something else does. But what is it that determines the outcome? Is it fate? Is it chance? Is it sheer dumb luck? Or is it God?

It would seem that intent alone isn’t enough to create the evil in the world, even when combined with action, intent isn’t a sufficient cause for an outcome.

But if our intent alone isn’t sufficient to cause the evil in the world, then what does? Logic would seem to dictate that if we don’t control the outcome, then it’s either up to chance, or it’s up to God.

We freely act which includes both intention and action or omission. Evil is of three kinds: physical, moral, and metaphysical.

 

[straykat]

Sin brings from Death (just as death sprung from sin). While God is the Author of Life. So “No”… the standard answer is there for a reason

Think about it… think about all of the sins that spring from temporality/morality/survival. If one wants to get ahead in life, one is tempted to walk over their brothers… or worse, fashion things that make it more efficient. If one knows how short life is, they surround themselves with pointless and harmful pleasures to make the “stay” more bearable. Everything springs from Death. Not Life. And the more these things are introduced in the world through the ages, the more a culture of death the Earth becomes.

edit: Conversely, Christ in his Resurrection reverses this. As the first Adam brought Death, the second brings Life. And those who rise in Christ - the Church - are called to reverse this culture and introduce one of Life. “You are the light of the world…”

 

[The_Revelator]

Sin brings from Death (just as death sprung from sin). While God is the Author of Life. So “No”… the standard answer is there for a reason

Think about it… think about all of the sins that spring from temporality/morality/survival. If one wants to get ahead in life, one is tempted to walk over their brothers… or worse, fashion things that make it more efficient. If one knows how short life is, they surround themselves with pointless and harmful pleasures to make the “stay” more bearable. Everything springs from Death. Not Life. And the more these things are introduced in the world through the ages, the more a culture of death the Earth becomes.

edit: Conversely, Christ in his Resurrection reverses this. As the first Adam brought Death, the second brings Life. And those who rise in Christ - the Church - are called to reverse this culture and introduce one of Life. “You are the light of the world…”

But this overlooks the point of the OP…intent, even when combined with action, isn’t sufficient to cause a particular outcome. Therefore, I may, or may not, intend to do evil, but that can’t be the ultimate cause of the evil. Something else, besides my intent, must be the cause. But what?

 

[straykat]

Well, that’s what I’m pointing out. The cause is death (the result is sin). This is not intent. This is the nature of things.

Unless I’m misunderstanding the question again. If so, my apologies.

 

[straykat]

I would point out that I’m just speaking from an Eastern perspective. Which is not “original sin” in the Augustinian sense. But Athanasian… I suppose.

 

[The_Revelator]

Well, that’s what I’m pointing out. The cause is death. This is not intent. This is the nature of things.

Unless I’m misunderstanding the question again. If so, my apologies.

Death may be the guiding force behind my intent, and the motivation behind my actions, but neither my intent, nor my actions are sufficient to determine the outcome. Something else must determine the outcome.

It may be my intent to do good, but that doesn’t mean that good will be the inevitable outcome. Intent doesn’t determine outcome.

 

[straykat]

It’s not merely you or me or any individual intent that should be the focus. It’s the whole world and it’s influences, and all of the inventions built up over the eons. It’s almost automatic for someone born into this world to NOT to think of all of the incorrect ways to survive, and difficult to think outside the box. You barely even need a conscious motivation.

And the more people introduce new ways of evil, the rest get used to it. Take usury, for example. It was once outlawed, but once the laws became flexible, the floodgates opened. And now it’s hard to convince even a Christian what pain they’re inflicting with it. They don’t even need a conscious intent. They simply serve a culture of Death automatically. And this is just one thing out of many.

edit:
It’s not God’s fault. He did everything already to reverse it.

 

[The_Revelator]

It’s not merely you or me or any individual intent that should be the focus. It’s the whole world and it’s influences, and all of the inventions built up over the eons. It’s almost automatic for someone born into this world to NOT to think of all of the incorrect ways to survive, and difficult to think outside the box. You barely even need a conscious motivation.

But this just avoids the problem. Intent alone isn’t a sufficient cause for an outcome. We as a group may intend to do good, or we may intend to do evil, but neither intent is sufficient to determine the outcome. But if our intent doesn’t determine the outcome, then what does?

 

[straykat]

I’m talking about mere intent. This goes beyond you or me and our wills. I said it’s practically automatic, because of the world we live in. This is the effect of original sin (or ancestral sin, rather). This is why we must die to the world…to die in Christ. Only then will the scales come off your eyes, so to speak.

 

[rossum]

Two points.

First: Isaiah 45:7 “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” (emphasis added)

Second: When Eve approached the tree, neither her nor Adam had yet disobeyed God. However, the serpent was already in the tree, in Eden. How could the serpent be there in Eden if it had not been created by God? It was certainly not caused by human sin, since Adam and Eve had not yet sinned.

rossum

 

[IWantGod]

God is the cause of that which makes evil a possibility. Evil aside, from a strictly ontological point of view, God is necessarily the only absolutely perfect being, a being that is not susceptible to some kind of corruption. As soon as God creates something he is necessarily creating something that is not himself, and thus it is something that is not absolute perfection.

Thus insofar as creation is concerned, there is no escaping some kind of imperfection in virtue of the fact that creation is not God.

I know this does not fully answer the qeustion but i think it’s important to understand the context in which creation exists because the act of creation is by definition the act of creating something lesser than himself…

Once God gives human beings freewill there is no avoiding the existence of evil.And perhaps the consequences of evil have to be known in order for anybody to love or respect or appreciate the good. It seems that suffering was always going to be the context in which free imperfect minds approach and know God.

I think the fall was an inevitability for which Jesus was the only solution.

 

[Wingz]

God is love, therefore He gave us free will. “If you live something set it free.”

If you look at the story of the Fall. You can see a deeper level of symbolism.

There were two trees- the tree of knowledge and the tree of life.

Adam and Eve could technically eat out of eauther tree they wanted but God advised them not to eat out of the tree of knowledge.

When they did however the tree of life was taken away this is symbolic of choice.

Adam and Eve made a choice- knowledge comes from experience therefore, by eating from the tree of knowledge Adam and Eve chose to allow the experience of evil in their lives and to know what it is. By doing however they gave up goodness, the paradise of Eden and eternal life.

Therefore God made Adam and Eve leave the garden of Eden where they could experience both good and evil.

However this is only temporary, God’s ultimate plan is to remove evil from the world. He will do this after judgment day where the Earth and all the evil on it while be destroyed.

A new Earth will then be created where people can live without evil.

 

[Mboo]

All that happens is willed of God, whether He is commanded or permitted. If I pledge to steal my brother, the evil is that I disobey to God for my immediate interest and knowing that it will be evil for my brother. On the other hand, if I actually succeed in stealing it, it is because it is God who will have permit it for the good of my brother (provided he cooperates with the will of God) and for his glory.
So God allowed the rich man of the parable not to feed Lazarus to purify Lazarus’ soul and save him. If the rich man knew that hunger was going to purify Lazarus’ soul and was going to save him, and refused him the food for that purpose, he would not have sinned!
So evil is not what hurts us, but it is disobeying God for our own satisfaction. As Moses obeyed God by exterminating certain people, he did not do evil!