Is God the perfection of everything?

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Ben_Sinner

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What I mean is if something exists…such a love or joy…does that mean God is the perfection of those things?

And if so, does the same apply to things like hate and selfishness?..For example, hate and selfishness exist…would God be the perfection of those things as well?
 
What I mean is if something exists…such a love or joy…does that mean God is the perfection of those things?

And if so, does the same apply to things like hate and selfishness?..For example, hate and selfishness exist…would God be the perfection of those things as well?
These are interesting questions that aim to figure out the very nature of God, or at least shed some light on it. However, they presume some rather problematic premises. The major premise you presume is that concepts have an ontological existence or nature. I would argue that the concepts are nothing more than abstract and thus do not have nature. Therefore, saying God is perfect love, hate, etc. is just like saying God doesn’t exist.

Now some Christians might argue 1 John 4:8 or 1 John 4:16, which proclaim “God is love,” as proof that concepts do have existence. But I would counter such a point saying that such statements have nothing to do with God’s nature, but are merely figurative expressions of what he generally wills: that is to have a positive, productive, and interactive relationship with his creation. I think this position is further bolstered when the read the entire verse of 1 John 4:8, which states: “He who does not love does not know God, because God is love.” In other words, those who do not love others or God are not acting in accordance with God’s will. And only those who care little for God or do not know him very well would do such a thing.
 
I would take a different tact that God creates in concert with a concept of love for it is perfect to do so. Love exists, but as a concept fully aligned with God’s ways
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God does not create hate or in hate also because it is perfect to not hate.

God did create something less than himself. He gave mankind the ability to build upon his perfect foundation. Mankind is free in the sense that he is also a rational being and can know to choose and did choose to be separate and independent from God. Losing the immediate guidance of God and protection the world turns wild and unforgiving. Because we are less than God we continue to make errors. Errors upon errors creep into our ways and thinking that they quickly grow into hate and murder.

Your argument is that an all knowing God should not have created mankind and that a perfect God can not have made something imperfect, but God knowing the end of the story as well as the beginning judges differently that all Justice and all Mercy and the correction of Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection will produce something greater that if all was ever perfect and nothing so base as mankind ever was. Therefore, if a greater something is possible then to create it is in concert with love and perfection not against it.

So, we are left with a difference in judgement. God’s that we will be perfected and build upon His foundation of love. Or the glass half empty folks who think, life is so bad that it should have never been. Each of us makes our own decision to grow in greater love and perfection or to hang our head and contend that all would be better if we had never existed. This is the present choice and the two sides of the argument outline it perfectly.
 
What I mean is if something exists…such a love or joy…does that mean God is the perfection of those things?
God exists and is the source of all that is good, including love and joy. Moreover, in him humans find the ultimate fulfillment of our desires for such goodness. In this sense, I think it is permissible to say that God is the perfection of goodness.
And if so, does the same apply to things like hate and selfishness?..For example, hate and selfishness exist…would God be the perfection of those things as well?
We have to make a distinction between things that exist because they have substance, and experiences that happens as a result of the absence of something. For example, we experience darkness because of the absence of light, but darkness has no substance (which is why we say that all the darkness in the universe cannot extinguish the light of a single candle). We experience cold, but only as the absence of heat. Likewise, sin is experienced as the absence of good, or the perversion of that which is initially good. Therefore, God would not be the perfection of hate, selfishness, or any other manifestation of sin, because sin has no existence in and of itself.
 
What I mean is if something exists…such a love or joy…does that mean God is the perfection of those things?

And if so, does the same apply to things like hate and selfishness?..For example, hate and selfishness exist…would God be the perfection of those things as well?
God possesses the fullness of being so the perfections of all things is in God in an infinite degree. Whatever perfections are found in created things are in God as their source for he is the creator of created things. All created things participate in some likeness or manifestation of God’s being in a more or less manner. For example, whatever has being or existence participates in God’s existence. Some created things not only exist but have life such as plants, animals, and man. So these things participate in a more or less manner not only in the existence of God but also in having life. Human beings also possess perfections of knowledge and love which they have through their intellects and wills. This is a participation in God’s knowledge and love and free will. The perfections of God, among others, includes being or existence, goodness, knowledge, love, mercy, justice, simplicity, power, etc. These perfections are in God in an infinite degree and are not distinct from one another in God nor distinct from God himself as God is an absolutely simple Being. God is being itself, goodness itself, love itself, justice itself, etc.

Hate, selfishness, injustice and such like things are not perfections but a lack of perfection and so they are not in God because God is infinitely perfect. These things are in creatures because creatures are imperfect. We cannot apply ideas to God that don’t befit Him or his infinite perfection, goodness, love, knowledge, etc.
 
What I mean is if something exists…such a love or joy…does that mean God is the perfection of those things?

God is the source of everything that exists and therefore posseses these qualities fully. You can not pass on an effect if you do not already possess that property.

And if so, does the same apply to things like hate and selfishness?..For example, hate and selfishness exist…would God be the perfection of those things as well?

God never created evil, nor does he possess it. Evil is a lack of good, just like darkness is the lack of light.
 
What I mean is if something exists…such a love or joy…does that mean God is the perfection of those things?

And if so, does the same apply to things like hate and selfishness?..For example, hate and selfishness exist…would God be the perfection of those things as well?
Yes you are quite correct.
This theme has historically had a lot of attention esp in the Middle Ages by Aquinas (Summa Contra Gentiles) and others.

Look up things like “the Divine Names, Perfections or Attributes”.
Its interesting that the conclusion is that we actually only know (philosophically) very little about God. This is because love mercy truth etc we only know in an imperfect way. And it is impossible for us to understand (a) how each of these are perfectly active in God and (b) how they all become one in God.

Therefore our understanding of those concepts is weak and only “analogical” (partly right, partly wrong) when referring to God.

The Mystics, when it came to this sport of thing, said we are more certain about what God is not than What He Is. You might like to look up “via negativa” versus “via positiva” in this connection.

Finally you mention hate and selfishness, in short evil qualities.
Aquinas had the same problem as you.
With great insight he realised evil does not actually exist in itself. Evil is but an absence of something that should be in something else.
Therefore evil is not a perfection of anything but rather the very opposite.
In fact perfect evil, if it could be perfect, would be “nothingness”.

I still remember my Phil 101 paper in 1980.
The priest professor began by giving us a riddle.
If there is nothing more perfect than God, and the strongest man in the world has a huge hairy chest, … does that mean God’s is bigger and hairier than that of this strongest man?
 
Finally you mention hate and selfishness, in short evil qualities.
Aquinas had the same problem as you.
With great insight he realised evil does not actually exist in itself. Evil is but an absence of something that should be in something else.
Therefore evil is not a perfection of anything but rather the very opposite.
In fact perfect evil, if it could be perfect, would be “nothingness”.
That is not a great insight. He simply ignore the very fact that evil is real to make things consistent. We experience evil and we know very well that is real. Moreover, God himself declared that he is the one who create evil (Isaiah 45:7).
 
That is not a great insight…
Now I understand your “religion.”

Think of something you call “evil”… you will first understand something that is good then secondly recognise there is something lacking in that good.

So evil is a privation of the good and “exists” in the good only in its “lack”.
In this sense there evil cannot exist in itself but only as a lack in something priorly good.
 
Now I understand your “religion.”
No you don’t understand my religion because I don’t have any. I don’t have a fixed system of thoughts. I just let it goes.
Think of something you call “evil”… you will first understand something that is good then secondly recognise there is something lacking in that good.

So evil is a privation of the good and “exists” in the good only in its “lack”.
In this sense there evil cannot exist in itself but only as a lack in something priorly good.
No, I can experience evil by itself as you can. Consider a serial killer who experience pleasure when s/he kills someone. You cannot possibly explain this sort of experience as lack of good. It is simply different. Moreover one can argue opposite of your argument saying that good is absence of evil. You don’t have any rule to justify which way is the correct. You could claim that God is good and I can claim that God is evil.
 
What I mean is if something exists…such a love or joy…does that mean God is the perfection of those things?

And if so, does the same apply to things like hate and selfishness?..For example, hate and selfishness exist…would God be the perfection of those things as well?
Hate and selfishness is not a nature. It is a privation.
 
No you don’t understand my religion because I don’t have any. I don’t have a fixed system of thoughts. I just let it goes.
Yes, that’s what I meant. You don’t have a single, coherent system.
No, I can experience evil by itself as you can.
Well one can define “evil” in many ways.
For Christians, esp Catholics, it is not really about some subjective, nebulous experience.
It tends to be more objectively defineable, as in an ontological (ie of “nature”) evil or a moral evil. Just as I understood the OP to be speaking wrt perfection.
Consider a serial killer who experience pleasure when s/he kills someone. You cannot possibly explain this sort of experience as lack of good.
This seems somewhat vague. I see moral evil here, but not in the pleasure.
What exactly is the moral evil here you refer to?
 
Yes, that’s what I meant. You don’t have a single, coherent system.
Coherent system? How we could possibly have any coherent system if knowledge is infinite? Unless you provide an argument which prove that the knowledge is finite.
Well one can define “evil” in many ways.
For Christians, esp Catholics, it is not really about some subjective, nebulous experience.

It tends to be more objectively defineable, as in an ontological (ie of “nature”) evil or a moral evil. Just as I understood the OP to be speaking wrt perfection.
The only objective truth is that we are conscious being. The rest is the result of experience so they are all subjective. Hence evil cannot be possibly be defined objectively.
This seems somewhat vague. I see moral evil here, but not in the pleasure.
Pleasure is the result of releasing the stress which accumulate over time because of internal force for act of killing. They are exactly similar to us. They just do different things.
What exactly is the moral evil here you refer to?
One of the basic pillar of the morality is the purpose. They have their own purposes which is hard for us to feel and comprehend since we are simply are not like them. We are simply different.
 
Coherent system? How we could possibly have any coherent system if knowledge is infinite? Unless you provide an argument which prove that the knowledge is finite.

The only objective truth is that we are conscious being. The rest is the result of experience so they are all subjective. Hence evil cannot be possibly be defined objectively.

Pleasure is the result of releasing the stress which accumulate over time because of internal force for act of killing. They are exactly similar to us. They just do different things.

One of the basic pillar of the morality is the purpose. They have their own purposes which is hard for us to feel and comprehend since we are simply are not like them. We are simply different.
Bahman your philosophy ultimately ends in solipsism, its true for you. So there seems little if any possibility of objectivity and so no common base from which to discuss anything beyond the banal. Cheers.
 
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