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Montalban
Guest
The whole purpose of Halloween was seen as a ‘last fling’ for demons.
Who’s Joel Osteen?
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Who’s Joel Osteen?
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Montalban
Guest
So Goblins aren’t satanic?
If you want to commemorate the ‘eve of a Holy Day’ that’s fine, but why dress up in non-Christian themes?
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
The Church took over this day so as to sanctify it for the purposes of Christ, by reclaiming His time so as to honour His Saints.
satan has no rights whatever - this day, all 24 hours of it, belongs to God, & not to any pagan religion. The Church honours Christ’s Saints on this day which she has reclaimed & sanctified, so what unbelievers do with it is in a sense irrelevant. It is a Christian feast now, no matter what the heathen may have made of it.Unless of course one is to claim that God has no right or power to take back His own days that He has created
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tabcom
Guest
Thank you for allowing me to expand upon the connection . . .
Does Joel Osteen preach the daily cross (Luke 9:23)?
Or does he preach self-esteem, make yourself feel good?
The title of his book betrays him.
Gen. 11:4 – “They said, Let us make us a name”
- name - Hebrew: Shem- honour; authority conspicuous position
Pride is the foundation of all idolatry. A man is an idol worshippers (of self), when he says, “I will make a name for myself. I am known as an authority (name) by my idols (cars, houses, lands, things.) My position in the community will cause men to look up to me”. This is an abomination. Pride is a stinking smell to God. Christians are to be living, acceptable, (pleasing) sacrifices. (Rom 12:1). Wicked-Spiritual Babylon, mother of idolatry, is the system of “pride” has always been here. It is what will pollute the world at the end of time.
In addition . . .
Luke 12:15 And he (Jesus) said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man’s life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth.
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Covetousness = Idolatry
covetousness- greek: pleonektes- to want more; greediness
Idolatry = wanting more
Every man is covetous by nature until God deals with him and causes him to repent (turn from self to God).** The word devil, demon (daimon) means to distribute fortunes.** A covetous man who “wants more” has a devil. Covetousness is the idolatrous worship of self. It is an idolatry as evil as falling down before Baal, the christmas tree, the golden calf, or anyone of the ancient pagan deities of Babylon.
Paul said, “having food and raiment, let us be there with content” (I Tim. 6:8). He also said, “I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.” (Phil. 4:11).
Men, myself included, are involved in idolatry when they refuse to be content with what they have. Their hearts cry out, “I want more.”
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tabcom
Guest
I don’t think that kind of logic would have worked for Ezra. You can read about his reaction to the people wanting to use the pagan customs of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Jebusites, the Ammonites, the Moabites, the Egyptians and the Amorites in the ninth chapter of Ezra. He hated it! I stand with Ezra.
Besides that, when you put an unclean thing with a clean thing, you got dirt.
Re 7:14 -
I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
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ArAnMike
Guest
With that kind of logic Christianity would never have gotten out of the upper room. We are to take things that are evil (abortion, murder, promiscuity, etc) confront them, and remove them from our midst. A Christmas tree is not evil. It is a symbol of eternal life (evergreen) and always points to heaven. Please start capitalizing the word because it is related to the Lord.
Also, when you put a dirty body with some clean soap and clean water, you get a clean body.
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KarenNC
Guest
Then I suppose your society has a chance to come up with its own culture regarding Halloween. That’s what happened in the US. Pumpkins, for instance, are American. It was an adaptation from the turnip/rutabaga type vegetable used in Ireland. Such doesn’t usually happen overnight, however, and the onus is pretty squarely on the culture choosing to adopt the holiday.Right!That sounds very practical - forgetting of course the seasonal differences regarding lighting I mentioned, as well.
As I pointed out, your country managed to handle Christmas okay, many of whose elements of traditional celebration are just as tied into a seasonal situation that doesn’t exist there as Halloween has. You’ll (the corporate “you”) figure it out. You could even look at it as a marketing opportunity—start selling “Trick or Treaters Welcome” signs for yards and doors. Might catch on.
In the meantime, take your Mom out to dinner next year or have her over to your house and she won’t have to worry about it.
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KarenNC
Guest
Someone tabcom seems to have a problem with. Have to ask him/her. (see previous page of posts)
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KarenNC
Guest
At least in the US, nobody has to. There are tons of churches around here, as I said, who organize Fall Festivals on Oct. 31 as an alternative for their folks and whoever else wants to come. They have trunk or treating out of decorated car trunks in the parking lot or lots of games for the kids. Some restrict the allowable costumes to Biblical characters or saints, some do not.
You have lots of freedom. Exercise it. Organize something like this in your parish for next year. Give Halloween some competition if you dislike it.
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VociMike
Guest
Not when they’re really 6 year old kids with a big smile on their faces and a bag of candy at their sides. If anything, those innocent “goblins” are mocking the devil, and we all know how much the devil hates to be mocked. You should study up on the medieval morality plays where the devil (a person dressed in a “satanic” costume - sound familiar?) was soundly mocked and abused to roars of laughter.
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KarenNC
Guest
This is quite true. Christians should celebrate their religious holiday as they please in accordance with their beliefs regardless of what anyone else does on that day. They are under no obligation to participate in any activities they dislike or which are contrary to their beliefs.
This is exactly the approach I take to the (omnipresent and massively commercial) celebrations of Christmas and Easter around here or to the efforts of a lot of churches to pretend that their “Fall Festivals” simply “happen” to all occur on Oct. 31 but have no connection to Halloween at all
. Halloween has never been tied truly to a Christian religious holiday in this area as there has been only a miniscule Catholic population until the last couple of decades.
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KarenNC
Guest
etymonline.com/index.php?search=devil&searchmode=none
devil
O.E. deofol “evil spirit,” from L.L. diabolus, from Gk. diabolos “accuser, slanderer” (scriptural loan-translation of Heb. satan), from diaballein “to slander, attack,” lit. “throw across,” from dia- “across, through” + ballein “to throw.” Jerome re-introduced Satan in L. bibles, and Eng. translators have used both in different measures. In Vulgate, as in Gk., diabolus and dæmon (see demon) were distinct, but they have merged in Eng. and other Gmc. languages. Playful use for “clever rogue” is from 1601. Meaning “sand spout, dust storm” is from 1835. In U.S. place names, the word often represents a native word such as Algonquian manito, more properly “spirit, god.” Devilry is from 1375; deviltry (1788) is a corrupt formation from it. Devilled “grilled with hot condiments” is from 1800. The Tasmanian devil so called since at least 1829, from its propensity for killing young lambs (other voracious fish or animals have also been named devil). Phrase a devil way (c.1290) was originally an emphatic form of away, but taken by late 14c. as an expression of irritation. Devil’s advocate (1760) is L. advocatus diaboli, one whose job it is to urge against the canonization of a candidate for sainthood. Devil-may-care is attested from 1837 (but suggested in other forms by 1793). Devil’s books “playing cards” is from 1729, but the cited quote says they’ve been called that “time out of mind” (the four of clubs is the devil’s bedposts); devil’s coach-horse is from 1840, the large rove-beetle, which is defiant when disturbed. “Talk of the Devil, and he’s presently at your elbow” [1666].
etymonline.com/index.php?search=demon&searchmode=none
demon
1387, from L. dæmon “spirit,” from Gk. daimon (gen. daimonos) “lesser god, guiding spirit, tutelary deity,” (sometimes including souls of the dead), used (with daimonion) in Christian Gk. translations and Vulgate for “god of the heathen” and “unclean spirit.” Jewish authors earlier had employed the Gk. word in this sense, using it to render shedim “lords, idols” in the Septuagint, and Matt. viii.31 has daimones, translated as deofol in O.E., feend or deuil in M.E. The original mythological sense is sometimes written dæmon for purposes of distinction. The Demon of Socrates (1387) was a daimonion, a “divine principle or inward oracle.” His accusers, and later the Church Fathers, however, represented this otherwise. The Demon Star (1895) is Beta Persei (in Ar. Algol “the Demon”) so called because it visibly varies in brightness every three days. Fem. form demoness first attested 1638. Demonic is from 1662; demonize is from 1821.
For the Greeks, daemones came in many different kinds, some kindly disposed toward humans, some not, some indifferent or neutral.
theoi.com/Encyc_D.html
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DanteAlighieri
Guest
OK.
The theater as we know it today originated in pagan Greek performances intended to honor the god Dionysus. The plays of the day would be performed as part of a large multi-day festival famous for drinking, revelry, and debauchery.
Is the modern theater inherently immoral, then? (Note: I am NOT talking about the plays people choose to produce; I’m talking about theater itself.)
Of course not.
Has it escaped your notice that, regardless of what Halloween began as, it is absolutley not that now? Kids in costume asking for candy – that’s all.
Peace,
Dante
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DanteAlighieri
Guest
Ever read any J.R.R. Tolkien? Sure, they’re traditionally evil creatures, but dressing up as a goblin doesn’t have anything to do with “paying homage” to Satan. Please.
And why can’t I celebrate All Hallow’s Eve AND dress up as a Blues Brother at a Halloween party?
Peace,
Dante
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iamscifimike
Guest
Dante, I would argue that it’s better than that.
Unlike in Ezra when the Jews wanted to use pagan rituals. What Steve Ray was talking about was more than just a cleaning up in the dirt removal sense but a Christianizing. Making holy festivals that incorporate elements of pagan rituals, not the rituals themselves.
I also want to point to the a-souling tradition that “trick-or-treating” came from that I mentioned in my first post (#8). From what I’ve read, I don’t think that this even has a pagan root at all.
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Generic_Man
Guest
(Note: I have not read entire topic)
This is absurd. I never knew people here could be so amazingly scrupulous.
Many people here have gotten the conception that dressing up as some imaginary creature, some fictional characters, some something and recieving Hershey bars is Satanic. This baffles me. Somehow you have bended the laws of common sense to equate a mummy or somesuch with demons. I have breaking news for you. Fallen Angels look nothing like goblins, vampires, white-sheet ghosts. The mythology here and Christian mythology (important: I do not mean ‘fairy tale’ when I say mythology. I mean a story. Mythology can actually be true, but this definition is uncommon) are apples and oranges. They have nothing to do with each other. Simply put, there is no solid connection to halloween costumes and demonology.
And second, you assume that all trick or treaters dress up as mock supernatural creatures. This isn’t true either. It’s varied. Little girls may dress up as princesses or something.
And let’s ignore the fact that Rome has never issued a statement condemning Halloween. Let’s forget that catholic schools celebrate this holiday. And let us overlook that Halloween being evil has never been spoken about in the Church. I mean, it is Satan’s holiday, but they all expect us to know this, right? Or maybe they just keep forgetting. I’m sure they have a perfectly legitimate excuse for not pointing out what you puport as the unholiest day of the year for what it is.
Adding onto the previous paragraph, this is actually the first time I have heard Catholics decring the devil’s holiday. Not to mention this was done by a small group of over-worrying laypeople who know less about theology then they think. I’m not saying I’m St. Augustine here, I’m saying know your limits and don’t use blind fear to make your decisions.
This is absurd. I never knew people here could be so amazingly scrupulous.
Many people here have gotten the conception that dressing up as some imaginary creature, some fictional characters, some something and recieving Hershey bars is Satanic. This baffles me. Somehow you have bended the laws of common sense to equate a mummy or somesuch with demons. I have breaking news for you. Fallen Angels look nothing like goblins, vampires, white-sheet ghosts. The mythology here and Christian mythology (important: I do not mean ‘fairy tale’ when I say mythology. I mean a story. Mythology can actually be true, but this definition is uncommon) are apples and oranges. They have nothing to do with each other. Simply put, there is no solid connection to halloween costumes and demonology.
And second, you assume that all trick or treaters dress up as mock supernatural creatures. This isn’t true either. It’s varied. Little girls may dress up as princesses or something.
And let’s ignore the fact that Rome has never issued a statement condemning Halloween. Let’s forget that catholic schools celebrate this holiday. And let us overlook that Halloween being evil has never been spoken about in the Church. I mean, it is Satan’s holiday, but they all expect us to know this, right? Or maybe they just keep forgetting. I’m sure they have a perfectly legitimate excuse for not pointing out what you puport as the unholiest day of the year for what it is.
Adding onto the previous paragraph, this is actually the first time I have heard Catholics decring the devil’s holiday. Not to mention this was done by a small group of over-worrying laypeople who know less about theology then they think. I’m not saying I’m St. Augustine here, I’m saying know your limits and don’t use blind fear to make your decisions.
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DanteAlighieri
Guest
Well said!
And to scifimike: I agree. I would tend to think that most of what people call the “pagan origins of Halloween” are actually rooted in ancient ignorant superstitions rather than paganism or – God forbid – Satanism.
Peace,
Dante
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tabcom
Guest
This is off topic. If you, or anyone else would like to create a new thread, I could provide you with far more information regarding the origin of the tree, and why I believe it is evil, then most people would want to know. :coffeeread:
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mlchance
Guest
And therein is part of the problem, IMO. Halloween is a Catholic holy day. It is the eve of All Saint’s Day, a holy day that goes back to at least the 4th century, and it is likely that All Hallow’s Eve has been observed that long as well. OTOH, what is Christian about a Fall Festival? It sounds like one of those generic public school holidays designed to remove religious references from the academic calendar (such as Winter Break).
Halloween is not evil. Surrendering Halloween to those who continue to abuse it is.
– Mark L. Chance.
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