Is He almighty?

[meltzerboy]

And how would you begin to know that, if you’ve never been outside the physical universe?

It is believed that we humans and animals have spirits but we are not, as you stated, outside the physical universe. So why would rocks who have spirits be different since we perceive them also as part of the Creation?

 

[Ignatius]

A friend asked me this tricky question. Can God make a stone so heavy that not even Him can lift?

Any rock that exists is created by God and has been put in place by God. Therefore, no stone, or anything else, can exist that God not only can, but did in fact put wherever it is.
IOW, there is no such thing as a stone so big that God cannot lift it.

 

[1ke]

Then where did God come from?

I highly recommend the book Theology for Beginners, by Frank Sheed. I think it is what you are looking for.

 

[DavidFilmer]

Then God cannot have just always existed by his own accord without someone/something having created him.

Ohmygosh, you are SO close to really understanding this!!!

You are missing just one vital point.

God does not exist (and has never existed) by his own accord. Because that would mean that God created God (or God caused God to exist).

I seek the bravest and the finest knights in the land who will join me in my court at Camelot. You have proved yourself worthy. Will you join me?

Will you think about the possibility that God is infinite, and therefore MUST be uncreated?

 

[zz912]

Then God cannot have just always existed by his own accord without someone/something having created him.

On the other hand

Circles and squares are things within the physical world, but maybe outside the physical world there are other odd shapes that exist, only we cant know about them because our feeble human minds cannot understand the complixities of them, like we can’t understand a lot of things about God.

I’m not sure you understand the concepts we’re bringing up here.

It doesn’t matter if there are other odd shapes or not. A circle is a distinct definition, as is a square. By their definition, they are not each other, and cannot be. If you change a square to make it completely round, then it is no longer a square.

Just the same with the original question about a rock that God cannot lift. He is outside of the physical universe, the Uncaused Cause, the Eternal Being. He was never created, but has always existed. He creates every single bit of the universe. It only exists because He wills it. So a rock that God couldn’t lift is like a round square. An impossibility based on the nature of the question and nature of God and the universe.

 

[zz912]

Now that I think of another clearer example, wouldn’t “virgin birth” be the equivalent of “square circle”?

No.

God is certainly capable of conceiving a child in Mary’s womb without intercourse. He in fact did.

 

[SonOfMan]

It doesn’t matter if there are other odd shapes or not. A circle is a distinct definition, as is a square. By their definition, they are not each other, and cannot be. If you change a square to make it completely round, then it is no longer a square.

Let me put it this way, if 3 separate people can be 1 person (i.e. The Holy Trinity), then certainly a square can be a circle, even if they are separate shapes.

If you cant agree to that, then you are being inconsistent or intellectually dishonest.

 

[meltzerboy]

Let me put it this way, if 3 separate people can be 1 person (i.e. The Holy Trinity), then certainly a square can be a circle, even if they are separate shapes.

If you cant agree to that, then you are being inconsistent or intellectually dishonest.

However, Christians do not believe that the Trinity consists of three separate people. They believe the Trinity is three distinct Persons who have different functions in relationship to one another but are not separate beings. Each Person is believed to be the One G-d in His entirety. A challenging concept, to be sure, but not the same as that of a square-circle.

Perhaps one might argue that as a square is BECOMING a circle, there is a possibility that it could be called either. But not so when the square changes shape entirely.

 

[Micosil]

Let me put it this way, if 3 separate people can be 1 person (i.e. The Holy Trinity), then certainly a square can be a circle, even if they are separate shapes.

If you cant agree to that, then you are being inconsistent or intellectually dishonest.

The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are each a Person if of themselves that are in communion with each other, and the essence, substance or nature of all three of them is one. The “Person” is who they are, the nature is what they are.

So they’re not three separate people, no, and since their essence or nature is the same, there’s no logical contradiction.

 

[Usagi]

SonofMan, there is an important distinction between things that are physically or biologically impossible and things that are logically impossible.

In the former category we can put such miracles as the virgin birth, raising the dead, parting the sea, or turning water into wine. By impossible we mean that those things do not happen in the natural course of affairs and there is no known mechanism by which they can happen. Nevertheless, they are not logically contradictory. We can, at least, imagine what they would look like.

In the latter category are square circles and the simultaneous existence of Pallas Athene’s perfect bullet and perfect shield (which is the same problem as “unstoppable force meets immovable object” or “rock God cannot lift”). In these cases, the problem is not one of physical difficulty that might be overcome. The problem lies in the definitions of the words themselves. As Pallas Athene points out, we can say these things and that makes them sound like real problems to consider, but if we think about it the words cannot actually refer to anything, even purely conceptually. They define themselves out of existence. A square is a shape with four equal sides that meet at right angles. A circle is a shape made up of all points equidistant from a common center. In Euclidean geometry, at least, nothing can meet both of those definitions simultaneously.

The problem with the other situation (bullet/shield, force/object, God/rock) is that at least one of the things is defined in relational terms. By existing, even in concept, it defines certain other things out of existing. If I have a bullet that, by definition, cannot be stopped by any defense, then in that universe there IS NO perfect defense. If I define the defense first, then there is no perfect bullet. Again, this is mostly a matter of words, though. In real life, one might make a bullet that penetrates all known defenses, only for someone else to later invent a better shield. Your physical bullet hasn’t popped out of existence, but it has been shown not to be the conceptual perfect bullet. Similarly, if God is characterized as a being that can exert potentially infinite force, it is no failing on His part to be unable to create a rock He can’t lift. The concept makes no sense in a universe with such a God in it. God can still create rocks of arbitrarily great mass; it’s just that He can also lift them and therefore they do not qualify as the unliftable rock.

As others have already pointed out, the Trinity does not constitute a logical contradiction because, contrary to your phrasing, we do not say “three people are simultaneously one person.” We say “three divine persons share the one divine nature.” It’s a slippery idea and there are no earthly examples, but it is not self-contradictory.

Usagi

 

[zz912]

Let me put it this way, if 3 separate people can be 1 person (i.e. The Holy Trinity), then certainly a square can be a circle, even if they are separate shapes.

If you cant agree to that, then you are being inconsistent or intellectually dishonest.

I don’t think you understand the Christian view on the Trinity. Christians believe there are 3 Persons in 1 Godhead. 3 Persons exist within 1 thing. This is not a logical impossibility as I’ll show.

We can understand things and persons and how they relate to one another. We know of things that contain no persons. A rock, tree, dog, garden hose. Each of these is 1 thing, and all of them contain zero persons. Now consider a human, it is one thing, and it contains 1 person. So we have shown that there is no relation between a thing and number of persons it holds.

So imagining a thing (God) containing 3 Persons (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) is not a logical contradiction.

 

[Ignatius]

However, Christians do not believe that the Trinity consists of three separate people. They believe the Trinity is three distinct Persons who have different functions in relationship to one another but are not separate beings. Each Person is believed to be the One G-d in His entirety.

Kudos for a very cogent and succinct (and correct) explanation of the Catholic Christian concept of the Trinity.