Is it a possibility that we JUMP OUT from Jesus hand and end up in hell? – John 10:28.

[LatinRight]

It is challenging, yes. The difficulty (and the heresies surrounding it) has caused some Catholics to water it down or abandon predestination entirely, failing to realize that predestination is a Catholic teaching and must be accepted. “Makes my head hurt” is an apt description for those still starting out.

But remembering that the following are non-negotiables, and accepting them as fact first, despite any surface contradiction (key word=“surface”), it can be an extremely stimulating study. The non-negotiables are these:

1. 
   *]From eternity, God has predestined certain souls to salvation (predestination).
   *]From eternity, in light of foreseen demerits, God has ordained certain souls to damnation (reprobation; predestination to hell without consideration of foreseen demerits is heretical double-predestination and is condemned).
   *]Both predestination and reprobation are decreed, not merely foreknown. God ensures these decrees are secured (denial of this is a denial of divine providence).
   *]The number of the predestined and the reprobate are both unknown and immutable (contrast to evangelical once-saved-always saved; we do not know the state of our being of the elect).
   *]God desires the salvation of all (denial is heretical double-predestination and limited atonement)
   *]God gives sufficient grace to all that they may be saved (contracted to double-predestination)
   *]God has given man free will, i.e. the freedom to respond to or reject this saving grace (contrast with total depavity).
   
   How all these mesh, the Church has not defined, allowing multiple and different schools of thought to flourish while remaining acceptable for Catholics to hold.

1. 
   Blessings Porthos11,
   
   Quote from your post: “Contrast to evangelical once-saved-always saved; we do not know the state of our being of the elect.” End quote.
   
   What I don’t understand, what our benefits are that we don’t know our standing?
   
   Do you have any idea for what our benefits are that we don’t know our standing?
   
   We are supposed to be Christ’s ambassadors, if we don’t know we are among
   
   the ELECT, logically we don’t know we are Christ’s ambassadors. The two cannot be separated.
   
   What kind of a work an American ambassador could do in another country if he doesn’t know he is an American ambassador.
   
   I have heard from several Catholics: We can know we are saved at the present time, but we
   
   are not free to know that we will be saved in the future. Is this true?
   
   Do you know Porthos11 what is the truth about that?
   
   Are we free to know we are at the present time Christ’s ambassadors? – 2 Cor.5:20; “Therefore
   
   we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us we implore you
   
   on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled with God.”
   
   Of course I welcome the view of the other members of the KAF as well.
   
   Thanks in advance.
   
   Blessings
   
   LatinRight

 

[LatinRight]

As an aside,

What isn’t said in that document

on this side of eternity, unless God informs one personally, who specifically is and who is not in the book of life (the elect), then that information in that book is a mystery for us.

If one DID know that information upfront, one wouldn’t need faith etc etc. That’s why even Paul said he works out his salvation in fear and trembling.

Re: Baptism, the document confirms what we all know, that it is a permanent sacrament. It can’t be lost, it can’t be repeated. That doesn’t mean however, one who is baptized can’t on their own, separate themselves from the Catholic Church. And the document doesn’t go into what happens for that person.

Blessings Steve b

The document in fact goes into what will happen with that person:

Paragraph 7.

**It remains CLEAR, in ANY EVENT, that the sacramental bond of belonging to the

Body of Christ that is the Church, conferred by the baptismal character, is an

ONTOLOGICAL and PERMANENT BOND which is not lost by reason of ANY ACT or fact

of DEFECTION**. End quote Emphasize added.

When that person die will end up in Heaven.

I will answer your post in more detail and I prove my above statement.

Blessings

LatinRight

 

[steve_b]

Blessings Steve b

The document in fact goes into what will happen with that person:

Paragraph 7.

**It remains CLEAR, in ANY EVENT, that the sacramental bond of belonging to the

Body of Christ that is the Church, conferred by the baptismal character, is an

ONTOLOGICAL and PERMANENT BOND which is not lost **by reason of ANY ACT or fact

of DEFECTION. End quote Emphasize added.

When that person die will end up in Heaven.

I will answer your post in more detail and I prove my above statement.

Blessings

LatinRight

It would be nice if it did, but baptism does not guarantee one will persevere till the end.

When Paul says the following to Titus, he is talking about warning one who is baptized and has embraced heresy .

Titus 3:10
“As for a man who is factious ( αἱρετικὸν heretic ), after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him, 11 knowing that such a person is perverted and sinful; he is self-condemned (αὐτοκατάκριτος. ).”

When Paul warns the Galatians he is talking to the baptized. Note the consequence

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are fornication, uncleanness, immodesty, luxury, Idolatry, witchcrafts, enmities, contentions, emulations, wraths, quarrels, dissensions, διχοστασίας ] sects, Envies, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like. Of the which I foretell you, as I have foretold to you, that they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God.

 

[LatinRight]

As an aside,

What isn’t said in that document

on this side of eternity, unless God informs one personally, who specifically is and who is not in the book of life (the elect), then that information in that book is a mystery for us.

If one DID know that information upfront, one wouldn’t need faith etc etc. That’s why even Paul said he works out his salvation in fear and trembling.

Re: Baptism, the document confirms what we all know, that it is a permanent sacrament. It can’t be lost, it can’t be repeated. That doesn’t mean however, one who is baptized can’t on their own, separate themselves from the Catholic Church. And the document doesn’t go into what happens for that person.

Blessings Steve b

The way I see it, there are three issues in your post.

1. We cannot know our names are in the Book of Life because that is a mystery for us.
2. That’s why even Paul said he works out his salvation in fear and trembling. – This is a separate issue and I prove it and I also explain what it is to work out our salvation in fear and trembling.
3. Baptism, the document confirms what we all know, that it is a permanent sacrament. It can’t be lost, it can’t be repeated.
   That doesn’t mean however, one who is baptized can’t on their own, separate themselves from the Catholic Church.
   And the document doesn’t go into what happens for that person.
4. CAN WE KNOW OUR NAMES ARE IN THE BOOK OF LIFE OR IT IS A MYSTERY AND WE CANNOT KNOW IT?

Luke 10:20; “… REJOICE because your names are written in heaven.”

Explanation of the Ignatius Catholic Study Bible of Luke 10:20: “The saints are enrolled in God’s heavenly book of life.”

As you see Steve b, it is far from mystery that our names stand written in the Book of Life,

and Christ wants us to KNOW and REJOICE because our names written in the Book of Life.

God even COMMANDS us to TEST our standing that we are members of the Body of

Christ or we are not. – If Christ is NOT in us, we are NOT members of the Body of Christ.

If Christ is IN us we are members of the Body of Christ.

The Eucharist is strictly for the members of the Body of Christ.

In my opinion, if someone partake in the Eucharist **without to believe **he is a member

of the Body of Christ, eats Christ’s body and drinks his blood without faith.

AN IMPORTANT WARNING FOR ALL OF US! – 1 Cor.11:27;

God doesn’t want that the reprobates whose names have been taken out from the Book of

life before the foundation of the world to participate in the Eucharist.

We all should know our standing before we partake in the Eucharist!

So, in 2 Cor.13:5-6 God has given us a COMMAND:

2 Cor.13:5-6; (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)

“Examine yourselves, to see whether you are holding to your faith. TEST YOURSELVES.

Do you not realize that Jesus Christ is in you? – unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

I hope **YOU WILL FIND OUT **that we have not failed. End quote. Emphasize added.

John 5:24; (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, HAS

EVERLASTING LIFE; he does NOT come into judgment, but has passed FROM DEATH

to LIFE.” Emphasize added.

1 John 5:13; (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)

“I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may KNOW that

you have eternal life.” Emphasize added.

As you see Steve b, it is far from mystery that our names stand written in the Book of Life,

we CAN know it and we SHOULD KNOW it and Christ wants us to REJOICE because our

names written in the Book of Life.

The Scripture infallible confirms we “may KNOW” it and according to God’s COMMAND in 2 Cor.13:5-6 we **MUST TEST **it!

God doesn’t want that we partake in the Eucharist without faith.

We **all **should test our standing before we partake in the Eucharist otherwise we might

partake in the Eucharist an UNWORTHY manner, without being members of the Body of

Christ or **not to have **faith to believe we are members of the Body of Christ. – Which is

probably **the same thing **as far the Eucharist be relevant to.

I will answer the other issue in my next post.

Blessings

LatinRight

 

[steve_b]

Blessings Steve b

The way I see it, there are three issues in your post.

1. We cannot know our names are in the Book of Life because that is a mystery for us.
2. That’s why even Paul said he works out his salvation in fear and trembling. – This is a separate issue and I prove it and I also explain what it is to work out our salvation in fear and trembling.
3. Baptism, the document confirms what we all know, that it is a permanent sacrament. It can’t be lost, it can’t be repeated.
   That doesn’t mean however, one who is baptized can’t on their own, separate themselves from the Catholic Church.
   And the document doesn’t go into what happens for that person.
4. CAN WE KNOW OUR NAMES ARE IN THE BOOK OF LIFE OR IT IS A MYSTERY AND WE CANNOT KNOW IT?

Luke 10:20; “… REJOICE because your names are written in heaven.”

Explanation of the Ignatius Catholic Study Bible of Luke 10:20: “The saints are enrolled in God’s heavenly book of life.”

As you see Steve b, it is far from mystery that our names stand written in the Book of Life,

and Christ wants us to KNOW and REJOICE because our names written in the Book of Life.

Lk 10:

17The seventy(“Lk 10 RSVCE - The Mission of the Seventy - After this - Bible Gateway”)**] returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name!” 18 And he said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.c] 19 Behold, I have given you authority to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy; and nothing shall hurt you. ** 20 Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you; but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.”

In my previous post I gave a qualified statement.

"unless God informs one personally, who specifically is and who is not in the book of life (the elect), then that information in that book is a mystery for us"

here #39
L:

God even COMMANDS us to TEST our standing that we are members of the Body of

Christ or we are not. – If Christ is NOT in us, we are NOT members of the Body of Christ.

If Christ is IN us we are members of the Body of Christ.

Reference?
L:

The Eucharist is strictly for the members of the Body of Christ.

In my opinion, if someone partake in the Eucharist **without to believe **he is a member

of the Body of Christ, eats Christ’s body and drinks his blood without faith.

AN IMPORTANT WARNING FOR ALL OF US! – 1 Cor.11:27;

God doesn’t want that the reprobates *whose names have been taken out from the Book of

life before the foundation of the world *to participate in the Eucharist.

My understanding is, one isn’t in the book then removed from the book. They were
never in the book to begin with.
L:

We all should know our standing before we partake in the Eucharist!

As far as being in the state of grace, (not in mortal sin) that’s true.
L:

So, in 2 Cor.13:5-6 God has given us a COMMAND:

2 Cor.13:5-6; (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)

“Examine yourselves, to see whether you are holding to your faith. TEST YOURSELVES.

Do you not realize that Jesus Christ is in you? – unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

I hope **YOU WILL FIND OUT **that we have not failed. End quote. Emphasize added.

John 5:24; (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, HAS

EVERLASTING LIFE; he does NOT come into judgment, but has passed FROM DEATH

to LIFE.” Emphasize added.

1 John 5:13; (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)

“I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may KNOW that

you have eternal life.” Emphasize added.

As you see Steve b, it is far from mystery that our names stand written in the Book of Life,

we CAN know it and we SHOULD KNOW it and Christ wants us to REJOICE because our

names written in the Book of Life.

The Scripture infallible confirms we “may KNOW” it and according to God’s COMMAND in 2 Cor.13:5-6 we **MUST TEST **it!

God doesn’t want that we partake in the Eucharist without faith.

We **all **should test our standing before we partake in the Eucharist otherwise we might

partake in the Eucharist an UNWORTHY manner, without being members of the Body of

Christ or **not to have **faith to believe we are members of the Body of Christ. – Which is

probably **the same thing **as far the Eucharist be relevant to.

I will answer the other issue in my next post.

Blessings

LatinRight

One can leave the confessional in the afternoon squeeky clean, and if they die in that state, they go to heaven. Yet that night if they fall into mortal sin and die in that state they don’t go to heaven, they go to hell.

If that happened, God knew that would be the case before all creation. He knows EVERYTHING in advance. No surprises.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

Short answer, yes. One jumps out of Jesus hand when they commit mortal sin and do not repent. However, one cannot isolate one verse out of context and come to a proper conclusion. Back up a couple verses and it sheds more light on the passage.

5* Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness to me; 26* but you do not believe, because you do not belong to my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; 28* and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.

The promise for eternal life is for the sheep that follow Jesus. If you don’t follow Jesus, you are no longer a sheep, and the promise of eternal life and that “no one shall snatch them out of My hand” no longer applies.

Another Scripture that shows that we can have salvation and then lose it is 2 Pet 2:20-21

20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.

Also from Revelation, some sobering words from our Lord:

Rev 2 5 Remember then from what you have fallen, repent and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

Rev 3:4-5 Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5* He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life." So what happens when you have a soiled garment? Ex 32:33 says But the LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against me,** him will I blot out of my book**.

Rev 3:15 "'I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were cold or hot! 16 So, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of my mouth.

Even St. Paul who so devotedly followed Christ and all His teachings did not presume salvation because he said to the Corinthians “27 but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.” 1 Cor 9:27

So many people miss the forest for the trees when it comes to the Scriptures. The letters (Romans, Corinthians, Ephesians, etc) were written to BELIEVERS, and they are filled with admonishments to repent and change their ways. If all of them had “their names written in the book” without risk of being blotted out, why would the letters continually admonish them to repenting?

PS. God never violates the covenant. It is always man who breaks the covenant and from the Old Covenant to the New, God kept His promises. It was always man who would break with God. God said I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live (Dt 30:19) It still stands today and every day it is a choice.

 

[LatinRight]

Lk 10:

17**

One can leave the confessional in the afternoon squeeky clean, and if they die in that state, they go to heaven. Yet that night if they fall into mortal sin and die in that state they don’t go to heaven, they go to hell.

If that happened, God knew that would be the case before all creation. He knows EVERYTHING in advance. No surprises.**

Blessings Steve b

I’m not sure how you mean your following statement.

Quote: One can leave the confessional in the afternoon squeeky clean, and if they die in

that state, they go to heaven. Yet that night if they fall into mortal sin and die in that state

they don’t go to heaven, they go to hell. End quote.

Do you mean God knows how someone would act IF he would be a Christian (would jump

out) and then He would take out his name from the Book of Life as a reprobate and will

never be a Christian?

I believe the above statement is a possibility.

I believe you know, your statement in the above quote, in reality could never happen.

“One can leave the confessional in the afternoon squeeky clean.” That person MUST BE a

Christian and he cannot die in the state of mortal sin.

A reprobate is not baptized into Christ, so he can NEVER leave the confessional squeeky

clean and he can never end up in Heaven.

If a Christian would die in the state of mortal sin and would end up in hell or a reprobate

would die in the state of grace and would end up in Heaven, that would destroy God’s omniscience.

What do you believe Steve b, what is the state of grace and what is the state of mortal sin?

I believe, being in the Body of Christ means many good thing, includes being in a reconciled relationship with God.

So I believe, being in the body of Christ is being in the state of grace.

Until someone proves my view is incorrect, I believe the state of grace is being in the Body of Christ.

I also believe, being in the state of mortal sin is being outside of the Body of Christ and

being in an un-reconciled relationship with God.

I also believe, an elect baptized into the Body of Christ, nothing can remove him from the body of Christ.

So there is **no such thing **that a Christian lose salvation!

PROOF that being in the Body of Christ is being in the state of grace.

The following Bible verses also positive proof: Being outside of the Body of Christ is being in the state of mortal sin.

Rom.3:24; “Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is IN Christ Jesus.”

Eph.1:7; “IN HIM we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace.”

Rom.6:23; “ … the gift of God is eternal life IN Christ Jesus our Lord.”

Eph.1:10; “As a plan for the fullness of time, to unite ALL things IN HIM, things in heaven and things on earth.” Emphasize added.

I work on to answer the rest of your posts as well.

Blessings

LatinRight

 

[steve_b]

Blessings Steve b

I’m not sure how you mean your following statement.

Quote: One can leave the confessional in the afternoon squeeky clean, and if they die in

that state, they go to heaven. Yet that night if they fall into mortal sin and die in that state

they don’t go to heaven, they go to hell. End quote.

Do you mean God knows how someone would act IF he would be a Christian (would jump

out) and then He would take out his name from the Book of Life as a reprobate and will

never be a Christian?

God knows in advance from all eternity, which state a person will die in. The person doesn’t know that but God does.

It’s no more complicated than that.
L:

I believe the above statement is a possibility.

I believe you know, your statement in the above quote, in reality could never happen.

“One can leave the confessional in the afternoon squeeky clean.” That person MUST BE a

Christian and he cannot die in the state of mortal sin.

A reprobate is not baptized into Christ, so he can NEVER leave the confessional squeeky

clean and he can never end up in Heaven.

If a Christian would die in the state of mortal sin and would end up in hell or a reprobate

would die in the state of grace and would end up in Heaven, that would destroy God’s omniscience.

Mortal sin is easy to commit for ANYONE. Therefore the example I used is valid
L:

What do you believe Steve b, what is the state of grace and what is the state of mortal sin?

Mortal sin destroys the state of grace. The sacrament of confession restores that state of grace

please see the links provided that follow.
L:

I believe, being in the Body of Christ means many good thing, includes being in a reconciled relationship with God.

So I believe, being in the body of Christ is being in the state of grace.

Until someone proves my view is incorrect, I believe the state of grace is being in the Body of Christ.

I also believe, being in the state of mortal sin is being outside of the Body of Christ and

being in an un-reconciled relationship with God.

I also believe, an elect baptized into the Body of Christ, nothing can remove him from the body of Christ.

So there is **no such thing **that a Christian lose salvation!

please open and read each internal link in each of the following links

• mortal sin ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=mortal+sin&xsubmit=Search&s=SS
• particularly “state of grace” 1861 , 1863
• confession ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=confession&xsubmit=Search&s=SS
• and contrition ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=contrition&xsubmit=Search&s=SS

It’s what I’ve been saying
L:

PROOF that being in the Body of Christ is being in the state of grace.

The following Bible verses also positive proof: Being outside of the Body of Christ is being in the state of mortal sin.

Rom.3:24; “Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is IN Christ Jesus.”

Eph.1:7; “IN HIM we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace.”

Rom.6:23; “ … the gift of God is eternal life IN Christ Jesus our Lord.”

Eph.1:10; “As a plan for the fullness of time, to unite ALL things IN HIM, things in heaven and things on earth.” Emphasize added.

I work on to answer the rest of your posts as well.

Blessings

LatinRight

Please read the links I provided

 

[LatinRight]

Re: Baptism, the document confirms what we all know, that it is a permanent sacrament. It can’t be lost, it can’t be repeated. That doesn’t mean however, one who is baptized can’t on their own, separate themselves from the Catholic Church. And the document doesn’t go into what happens for that person.

Blessings Steve b,

I agree someone who is baptized can on his own, separate himself from the Catholic Church and join a protestant denomination.

THE QUESTION IS WHAT WILL HAPPEN WITH HIM?

If we combine together THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect,

**PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR LEGISLATIVE TEXTS, ACTUS FORMALIS

DEFECTIONIS AB ECCLESIA CATHOLICA** and the teaching of the SCRIPTURE on

the economy of salvation we HAVE the answer.

THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect

Quote; “Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has

been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it

were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that

one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been

**MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge **of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.

“God’s unerring foreknowledge and foreordaining is designated in the Bible by the beautiful

figure of the “Book of Life” (liber vitæ, to biblion tes zoes). This book of life is a list which

contains the names of ALL THE ELECT and admits NEITHER ADDITIONS NO ERASURES.

(2) The second quality of predestination, the DEFINITENESS of the number of the elect,

follows NATURALLY from the first. For if the eternal counsel of God regarding the

predestined is UNCHANGEABLE, then the number of the predestined must likewise be

UNCHANGEABLE and DEFINITE, subject NEITHER to ADDITIONS nor to

CANCELLATIONS. Anything indefinite in the number would eo ipso imply a lack of

certitude in God’s knowledge and would DESTROY His omniscience.” End quote Emphasize added.

**PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR LEGISLATIVE TEXTS

ACTUS FORMALIS DEFECTIONIS AB ECCLESIA CATHOLICA**

Vatican City, 13 March 2006
Prot. N. 10279/2006

Paragraph 7.

**It remains CLEAR, in ANY EVENT, that the sacramental bond of belonging to the

Body of Christ that is the Church, conferred by the baptismal character, is an

ONTOLOGICAL and PERMANENT BOND which is not lost by reason of ANY ACT or fact

of DEFECTION**. End quote Emphasize added.

THE SRIPTURE INFALLIBLE AFFIRMS

Rom.8:29-30; (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)
“For those whom He foreknew He also PREDESTINED … And those whom He predestined He also CALLED;

Eph.2:8;
“For by grace you have been saved … it is the GIFT of God.”

Rom.11:29;
“For the GIFTS and the CALL of God are IRREVOCABLE.”

As we see above, Paragraph 7 have been built on **THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The

predestination of the elect** and on the SCRIPTURE – Rom.8:29-30; Eph.2:8; Rom.11:29; etc.

God’s ELECT are predestined to Heaven, those who are PEDESTINED to Heaven, God

has CALLED them into His service and those whom God has called into His service

BAPTIZED them into the BODY OF CHRIST.

You see Steve b: God’s ELECT, those who are PREDESTINED to Heaven, those who are

CALLED, those who are baptized INTO THE BODY OF CHRIST are the same people.

According to THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect, if even one of them

would end up in hell, it is regardless for what reason, that would DESTROY God’s omniscience.

THE BOTTOM LINE IS!

**The salvation of a person can NEVER BE REVOKED under any reason, because

NO reason come up ever TO REVOKE THE SALVATION OF THOSE WHO ARE ONCE SAVED.**

So, those who are baptized in the Catholic Church into the Body of Christ and defect from the

Catholic Church and join a Protestant denomination will end up in Heaven.

Blessings

LatinRight

 

[steve_b]

Blessings Steve b,

I agree someone who is baptized can on his own, separate himself from the Catholic Church and join a protestant denomination.

THE QUESTION IS WHAT WILL HAPPEN WITH HIM?

If we combine together THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect,

**PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR LEGISLATIVE TEXTS, ACTUS FORMALIS

DEFECTIONIS AB ECCLESIA CATHOLICA** and the teaching of the SCRIPTURE on

the economy of salvation we HAVE the answer.

THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect

Quote; “Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has

been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it

were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that

one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been

**MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge **of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.

“God’s unerring foreknowledge and foreordaining is designated in the Bible by the beautiful

figure of the “Book of Life” (liber vitæ, to biblion tes zoes). This book of life is a list which

contains the names of ALL THE ELECT and admits NEITHER ADDITIONS NO ERASURES.

(2) The second quality of predestination, the DEFINITENESS of the number of the elect,

follows NATURALLY from the first. For if the eternal counsel of God regarding the

predestined is UNCHANGEABLE, then the number of the predestined must likewise be

UNCHANGEABLE and DEFINITE, subject NEITHER to ADDITIONS nor to

CANCELLATIONS. Anything indefinite in the number would eo ipso imply a lack of

certitude in God’s knowledge and would DESTROY His omniscience.” End quote Emphasize added.

**PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR LEGISLATIVE TEXTS

ACTUS FORMALIS DEFECTIONIS AB ECCLESIA CATHOLICA**

Vatican City, 13 March 2006
Prot. N. 10279/2006

Paragraph 7.

**It remains CLEAR, in ANY EVENT, that the sacramental bond of belonging to the

Body of Christ that is the Church, conferred by the baptismal character, is an

ONTOLOGICAL and PERMANENT BOND which is not lost by reason of ANY ACT or fact

of DEFECTION**. End quote Emphasize added.

THE SRIPTURE INFALLIBLE AFFIRMS

Rom.8:29-30; (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)
“For those whom He foreknew He also PREDESTINED … And those whom He predestined He also CALLED;

Eph.2:8;
“For by grace you have been saved … it is the GIFT of God.”

Rom.11:29;
“For the GIFTS and the CALL of God are IRREVOCABLE.”

As we see above, Paragraph 7 have been built on **THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The

predestination of the elect** and on the SCRIPTURE – Rom.8:29-30; Eph.2:8; Rom.11:29; etc.

God’s ELECT are predestined to Heaven, those who are PEDESTINED to Heaven, God

has CALLED them into His service and those whom God has called into His service

BAPTIZED them into the BODY OF CHRIST.

You see Steve b: God’s ELECT, those who are PREDESTINED to Heaven, those who are

CALLED, those who are baptized INTO THE BODY OF CHRIST are the same people.

According to THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect, if even one of them

would end up in hell, it is regardless for what reason, that would DESTROY God’s omniscience.

THE BOTTOM LINE IS!

The salvation of a person can NEVER BE REVOKED under any reason, because

NO reason come up ever TO REVOKE THE SALVATION OF THOSE WHO ARE ONCE SAVED.

So, those who are baptized in the Catholic Church into the Body of Christ and defect from the

Catholic Church and join a Protestant denomination will end up in-] Heaven. /-]

Blessings

LatinRight

You can’t make that conclusion. If they*** know ***what they are doing, then your conclusion for THEM contradicts Church teaching and it contradicts scripture. 846

As an aside, people can go in and out of sanctifying grace all throughout their lifetime. If they are NOT in sanctifying grace, (in mortal sin) and remain that way till death, they won’t be going to heaven.

And God knew that would happen to them before the foundation of the world.

 

[LatinRight]

You can’t make that conclusion. If they*** know ***what they are doing, then your conclusion for THEM contradicts Church teaching and it contradicts scripture. 846

As an aside, people can go in and out of sanctifying grace all throughout their lifetime. If they are NOT in sanctifying grace, (in mortal sin) and remain that way till death, they won’t be going to heaven.

And God knew that would happen to them before the foundation of the world.

Blessings Steve b

I know what you mean, but that is not contradicts Scripture only contradicts 846. – It is

time to 846 updated as follows.

The **PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR LEGISLATIVE TEXTS

ACTUS FORMALIS DEFECTIONIS AB ECCLESIA CATHOLICA** also contradicts 846.

Vatican City, 13 March 2006
Prot. N. 10279/2006

Your Excellency:

For quite some time, a considerable number of Bishops, Judicial Vicars and others working in the field of canon law have been posing to this Pontifical Council questions and requests for clarification concerning the so-called actus formalis defectionis ab Ecclesia catholica mentioned in canons 1086, § 1, 1117 and 1124 of the Code of Canon Law. …

(Paragraph 7 sums up the other six paragraphs.)

**7. It remains CLEAR, in ANY EVENT, that the sacramental bond of belonging to the

Body of Christ that is the Church, conferred by the baptismal character, is an

ONTOLOGICAL and PERMANENT BOND which is not lost by reason of ANY ACT or fact

of DEFECTION**.

Faithfully yours in the Lord,

Julián Card. Herranz President

Bruno Bertagna Secretary

This notification was approved by the Supreme Pontiff, Benedict XVI, who directed that it be transmitted to all Presidents of Episcopal Conferences. End quote. Emphasize and in the bracket is added.

FIRST

Those who defects from the Catholic Church to some Protestant denominations, they

sincerely believe, they defect for the reason because the Catholic Church teaching

heresies, such as purgatory, indulgences, faith + work salvation, they are not free to

believe they are ambassadors of Christ, etc.

I have spoken about it with some who left the Church and joined to Protestant denominations

mostly Evangelical Christians. – They sincerely belie they deed the right thing.

So, their consciences are clean.

Yes you are right Steve b, “God knew that would happen to them before the foundation of the world.”

Yet God still elected them, predestined them to Heaven and

baptized them into the Body of Christ in the Catholic Church.

Baptism into the Body of Christ is a PERMANENT BOND which

is not lost by reason of ANY ACT or fact of DEFECTION.

The fact that defection is not invalidates the baptism into the Body of

Christ, it is a positive proof that God baptizes those who defect into the Body of Christ.

Also it is a positive proof that we accept the baptism of those who defects from the Protestants and join to us.

Working in both case in the same way.

SECOND

Paragraph 7.

**It remains CLEAR, in ANY EVENT, that the sacramental bond of belonging to the

Body of Christ that is the Church, conferred by the baptismal character, is an

ONTOLOGICAL and PERMANENT BOND which is not lost by reason of ANY ACT or fact

of DEFECTION**.

The above teaching overrides 846 by stating: conferred by the baptismal character, ** is an

ONTOLOGICAL and PERMANENT BOND which is not lost by reason
of ANY ACT or fact

of DEFECTION**.

THIRD

In harmony with the **PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR LEGISLATIVE TEXTS, ACTUS

FORMALIS DEFECTIONIS AB ECCLESIA CATHOLICA, THE SRIPTURE OLSO

INFALLIBLE overrides 846.**

Rom.8:29-30; (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)
“For those whom He foreknew He also PREDESTINED … And those whom He predestined He also CALLED;

Eph.2:8;
“For by grace you have been saved … it is the GIFT of God.”

Rom.11:29;
“For the GIFTS and the CALL of God are IRREVOCABLE.”

FOURTH

** THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect ** also overrides 846.

An ELECT baptized into the Body of Christ cannot lose his salvation.

Only the ELECT baptized into the Body of Christ.

So, it is time to give CCC 846 an updated interpretation which is in harmony with **

THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect, the PONTIFICAL COUNCIL

FOR LEGISLATIVE TEXTS, ACTUS FORMALIS DEFECTIONIS AB ECCLESIA

CATHOLICA, and with THE SRIPTURE.**

MY ORIGINAL STATEMENT

So, those who are baptized in the Catholic Church into the Body of Christ and defect from the

Catholic Church and join a Protestant denomination will end up in Heaven.

1. THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect proves my above statement is correct.
2. **THE PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR LEGISLATIVE TEXTS, ACTUS FORMALIS

DEFECTIONIS AB ECCLESIA CATHOLICA** also proves my above statement is correct.

1. THE SRIPTURE. also proves my above statement is correct.

Rom.11:29;
“For the GIFTS and the CALL of God are IRREVOCABLE.”

**The key to understand: Only God’s ELECT] baptized into the Body of Christ and those who

baptized into the Body of Christ they can NEVER] lose their salvation. **

Blessings

LatinRight

 

[porthos11]

Blessings Steve b,

I agree someone who is baptized can on his own, separate himself from the Catholic Church and join a protestant denomination.

THE QUESTION IS WHAT WILL HAPPEN WITH HIM?

If we combine together THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect,

**PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR LEGISLATIVE TEXTS, ACTUS FORMALIS

DEFECTIONIS AB ECCLESIA CATHOLICA** and the teaching of the SCRIPTURE on

the economy of salvation we HAVE the answer.

THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect

Quote; “Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has

been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it

were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that

one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been

**MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge **of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.

“God’s unerring foreknowledge and foreordaining is designated in the Bible by the beautiful

figure of the “Book of Life” (liber vitæ, to biblion tes zoes). This book of life is a list which

contains the names of ALL THE ELECT and admits NEITHER ADDITIONS NO ERASURES.

(2) The second quality of predestination, the DEFINITENESS of the number of the elect,

follows NATURALLY from the first. For if the eternal counsel of God regarding the

predestined is UNCHANGEABLE, then the number of the predestined must likewise be

UNCHANGEABLE and DEFINITE, subject NEITHER to ADDITIONS nor to

CANCELLATIONS. Anything indefinite in the number would eo ipso imply a lack of

certitude in God’s knowledge and would DESTROY His omniscience.” End quote Emphasize added.

**PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR LEGISLATIVE TEXTS

ACTUS FORMALIS DEFECTIONIS AB ECCLESIA CATHOLICA**

Vatican City, 13 March 2006
Prot. N. 10279/2006

Paragraph 7.

**It remains CLEAR, in ANY EVENT, that the sacramental bond of belonging to the

Body of Christ that is the Church, conferred by the baptismal character, is an

ONTOLOGICAL and PERMANENT BOND which is not lost by reason of ANY ACT or fact

of DEFECTION**. End quote Emphasize added.

THE SRIPTURE INFALLIBLE AFFIRMS

Rom.8:29-30; (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)
“For those whom He foreknew He also PREDESTINED … And those whom He predestined He also CALLED;

Eph.2:8;
“For by grace you have been saved … it is the GIFT of God.”

Rom.11:29;
“For the GIFTS and the CALL of God are IRREVOCABLE.”

As we see above, Paragraph 7 have been built on **THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The

predestination of the elect** and on the SCRIPTURE – Rom.8:29-30; Eph.2:8; Rom.11:29; etc.

God’s ELECT are predestined to Heaven, those who are PEDESTINED to Heaven, God

has CALLED them into His service and those whom God has called into His service

BAPTIZED them into the BODY OF CHRIST.

You see Steve b: God’s ELECT, those who are PREDESTINED to Heaven, those who are

CALLED, those who are baptized INTO THE BODY OF CHRIST are the same people.

According to THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect, if even one of them

would end up in hell, it is regardless for what reason, that would DESTROY God’s omniscience.

THE BOTTOM LINE IS!

The salvation of a person can NEVER BE REVOKED under any reason, because

NO reason come up ever TO REVOKE THE SALVATION OF THOSE WHO ARE ONCE SAVED.

So, those who are baptized in the Catholic Church into the Body of Christ and defect from the

Catholic Church and join a Protestant denomination will end up in Heaven.

Blessings

LatinRight

You are not reading the texts properly and are failing to consider the degree of predestination. Predestination is conceived of as incomplete predestination to grace only or complete predestination to grace and glory.

The baptized are predestined to grace, not necessarily predestined to glory. It is very much possible to be baptized and still reprobate, that is, going to hell, because he wasn’t predestined to glory.

Your assessment that those predestined to grace and those predestined to glory are the exact same people. They are not. There are baptized people who go to hell.

 

[steve_b]

You are not reading the texts properly and are failing to consider the degree of predestination. Predestination is conceived of as incomplete predestination to grace only or complete predestination to grace and glory.

The baptized are predestined to grace, not necessarily predestined to glory. It is very much possible to be baptized and still reprobate, that is, going to hell, because he wasn’t predestined to glory.

Your assessment that those predestined to grace and those predestined to glory are the exact same people. They are not. There are baptized people who go to hell.

Exactly

 

[LatinRight]

You are not reading the texts properly and are failing to consider the degree of predestination. Predestination is conceived of as incomplete predestination to grace only or complete predestination to grace and glory.

The baptized are predestined to grace, not necessarily predestined to glory. It is very much possible to be baptized and still reprobate, that is, going to hell, because he wasn’t predestined to glory.

Your assessment that those predestined to grace and those predestined to glory are the exact same people. They are not. There are baptized people who go to hell.

Blessings Porthos11

Thanks you your post.

I know predestination to grace. God saves the reprobates whose names taken out from

the Book of Life for their vehement rejection of God and His grace.

I believe the **PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR LEGISLATIVE TEXTS, ACTUS FORMALIS

DEFECTIONIS AB ECCLESIA CATHOLICA** closed the door on that teaching.

The Catholic Church does not teach predestination to hell. Those who are predestined to

grace everyone end up in hell. – If that is not predestination to hell, I don’t know what is

predestination to hell.

The Word of God flatly contradicts the reprobates baptism into the Body of Christ which is

the Bride of Christ, so as the **PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR LEGISLATIVE TEXTS,

ACTUS FORMALIS DEFECTIONIS AB ECCLESIA CATHOLICA**

Vatican City, 13 March 2006
Prot. N. 10279/2006

Your Excellency:

For quite some time, a considerable number of Bishops, Judicial Vicars and others working in the field of canon law have been posing to this Pontifical Council questions and requests for clarification concerning the so-called actus formalis defectionis ab Ecclesia catholica mentioned in canons 1086, § 1, 1117 and 1124 of the Code of Canon Law. …

(Paragraph 7 sums up the other six paragraphs.)

**7. It remains CLEAR, in ANY EVENT, that the sacramental bond of belonging to the

Body of Christ that is the Church, conferred by the baptismal character, is an

ONTOLOGICAL and PERMANENT BOND which is not lost by reason of ANY ACT

or fact of DEFECTION**.

Faithfully yours in the Lord,

Julián Card. Herranz President

Bruno Bertagna Secretary

This notification was approved by the Supreme Pontiff, Benedict XVI, who directed that it be transmitted to all Presidents of Episcopal Conferences. End quote. Emphasize and in the bracket is added.

In harmony with the **PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR LEGISLATIVE TEXTS, ACTUS

FORMALIS DEFECTIONIS AB ECCLESIA CATHOLICA, THE SRIPTURE OLSO

INFALLIBLE rules out the reprobates baptism into the Body of Christ.

Rom.8:29-30; (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)
“For those whom He foreknew He also PREDESTINED … And those whom He predestined He also CALLED;

Eph.2:8;
“For by grace you have been saved … it is the GIFT of God.”

Rom.11:29;
“For the GIFTS and the CALL of God are IRREVOCABLE.”

If God would save reprobates He would have to revoke His irrevocable call and his

irrevocable gift of salvation.

**He also would have to take the reprobates out from the Body of Christ which is a

theological impossibility**.

The baptismal character INTO THE BODY OF CHRIST, is an ONTOLOGICAL and

PERMANENT BOND which is not lost by reason of ANY ACT or fact of DEFECTION**.

There is a way into the body of Christ but there is NO WAY OUT.

If God would baptize the reprobates into the Body of Christ they would end up in Heaven and that would DESTROY God’s omniscience.

THE WARNINGS OF CHRIST – Matt.13:24-30, 36-42; Matt.24:4-5, 11, 24; 2 Cor.11:13-15; 2 Pet.2:1-3, etc.

Blessins

LatinRight

 

[porthos11]

Blessings Porthos11

Thanks you your post.

I know predestination to grace. God saves the reprobates whose names taken out from

the Book of Life for their vehement rejection of God and His grace.

I believe the **PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR LEGISLATIVE TEXTS, ACTUS FORMALIS

DEFECTIONIS AB ECCLESIA CATHOLICA** closed the door on that teaching.

The Catholic Church does not teach predestination to hell. Those who are predestined to

grace everyone end up in hell. – If that is not predestination to hell, I don’t know what is

predestination to hell.

The Word of God flatly contradicts the reprobates baptism into the Body of Christ which is

the Bride of Christ, so as the **PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR LEGISLATIVE TEXTS,

ACTUS FORMALIS DEFECTIONIS AB ECCLESIA CATHOLICA**

Vatican City, 13 March 2006
Prot. N. 10279/2006

Your Excellency:

For quite some time, a considerable number of Bishops, Judicial Vicars and others working in the field of canon law have been posing to this Pontifical Council questions and requests for clarification concerning the so-called actus formalis defectionis ab Ecclesia catholica mentioned in canons 1086, § 1, 1117 and 1124 of the Code of Canon Law. …

(Paragraph 7 sums up the other six paragraphs.)

7. It remains CLEAR, in ANY EVENT, that the sacramental bond of belonging to the

Body of Christ that is the Church, conferred by the baptismal character, is an

ONTOLOGICAL and PERMANENT BOND which is not lost by reason of ANY ACT

or fact of DEFECTION.

Faithfully yours in the Lord,

Julián Card. Herranz President

Bruno Bertagna Secretary

This notification was approved by the Supreme Pontiff, Benedict XVI, who directed that it be transmitted to all Presidents of Episcopal Conferences. End quote. Emphasize and in the bracket is added.

In harmony with the **PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR LEGISLATIVE TEXTS, ACTUS

FORMALIS DEFECTIONIS AB ECCLESIA CATHOLICA, THE SRIPTURE OLSO

INFALLIBLE rules out the reprobates baptism into the Body of Christ.

Rom.8:29-30; (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)
“For those whom He foreknew He also PREDESTINED … And those whom He predestined He also CALLED**;

Eph.2:8;
“For by grace you have been saved … it is the GIFT of God.”

Rom.11:29;
“For the GIFTS and the CALL of God are IRREVOCABLE.”

If God would save reprobates He would have to revoke His irrevocable call and his

irrevocable gift of salvation.

**He also would have to take the reprobates out from the Body of Christ which is a

theological impossibility**.

The baptismal character INTO THE BODY OF CHRIST, is an ONTOLOGICAL and

PERMANENT BOND which is not lost by reason of ANY ACT or fact of DEFECTION.

There is a way into the body of Christ but there is NO WAY OUT.

If God would baptize the reprobates into the Body of Christ they would end up in Heaven and that would DESTROY God’s omniscience.

THE WARNINGS OF CHRIST – Matt.13:24-30, 36-42; Matt.24:4-5, 11, 24; 2 Cor.11:13-15; 2 Pet.2:1-3, etc.

Blessins

LatinRight

Again, you are not reading the texts properly.

Predestination to grace means one is baptized. Predestination to grace AND glory means someone goes to heaven. Predestination to grace is incomplete predestination.

You are jumping to the conclusion that those predestined to grace are automatically predestined to glory. This is not true. It must be necessarily true that those predestined to glory must have been predestined to grace, but the reverse is not true. There are those predestined to grace who are not predestined to glory. In other words, there are baptized people who WILL go to hell. Such people are NOT predestined to glory despite being predestined to grace, and their books are not (have never been) written in the Book of Life.

Your error is that you are failing to consider the difference between incomplete predestination to grace only and complete predestination to grace and glory.

 

[LatinRight]

Again, you are not reading the texts properly.

Predestination to grace means one is baptized. Predestination to grace AND glory means someone goes to heaven. Predestination to grace is incomplete predestination.

You are jumping to the conclusion that those predestined to grace are automatically predestined to glory. This is not true. It must be necessarily true that those predestined to glory must have been predestined to grace, but the reverse is not true. There are those predestined to grace who are not predestined to glory. In other words, there are baptized people who WILL go to hell. Such people are NOT predestined to glory despite being predestined to grace, and their books are not (have never been) written in the Book of Life.

Your error is that you are failing to consider the difference between incomplete predestination to grace only and complete predestination to grace and glory.

Blessings Porthos11

Thanks for your post.

I reading the text properly.

**PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR LEGISLATIVE TEXTS

ACTUS FORMALIS DEFECTIONIS AB ECCLESIA CATHOLICA**

Vatican City, 13 March 2006
Prot. N. 10279/2006

Your Excellency:

For quite some time, a considerable number of Bishops, Judicial Vicars and others working in the field of canon law have been posing to this Pontifical Council questions and requests for clarification concerning the so-called actus formalis defectionis ab Ecclesia catholica mentioned in canons 1086, § 1, 1117 and 1124 of the Code of Canon Law. …

(Paragraph 7 sums up the other six paragraphs.)

**7. It remains CLEAR, in ANY EVENT, that the sacramental bond of belonging to the

Body of Christ that is the Church, conferred by the baptismal character, is an

ONTOLOGICAL and PERMANENT BOND which is not lost by reason of ANY ACT

or fact of DEFECTION**.

Faithfully yours in the Lord,

Julián Card. Herranz President

Bruno Bertagna Secretary

This notification was approved by the Supreme Pontiff, Benedict XVI, who directed that it be transmitted to all Presidents of Episcopal Conferences. End quote. Emphasize and in the bracket is added.

When the above notification was approved by the Supreme Pontiff, Benedict XVI,

that approval RULED OUT and CLOSED the door on the predestination to grace which is

reprobates baptized into the Body of Christ.

Of course God ruled out the predestination to grace (reprobates baptized into the Body of

Christ) all eternity. – Please have a look.

**In harmony with the PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR LEGISLATIVE TEXTS, ACTUS

FORMALIS DEFECTIONIS AB ECCLESIA CATHOLICA, THE SRIPTURE OLSO

INFALLIBLE rules out the reprobates baptized into the Body of Christ.**

Rom.8:29-30; (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)
“For those whom He foreknew He also PREDESTINED … And those whom He predestined He also CALLED;

Eph.2:8;
“For by grace you have been saved … it is the GIFT of God.”

Rom.11:29;
“For the GIFTS and the CALL of God are IRREVOCABLE.”

Please porthos11 read and think!

THE TRUE PARAGRAPH 7.

**7. It remains CLEAR, in ANY EVENT, that the sacramental bond of belonging to the

Body of Christ that is the Church, conferred by the baptismal character, is an ONTOLOGICAL

and PERMANENT BOND which is not lost by reason of ANY ACT or fact of DEFECTION**.

THE CORRUPTED PARAGRAPH 7.

**7. IT REMAINS CLEAR the sacramental bond of belonging

to the Body of Christ that is the Church, conferred by the baptismal character, is

NOT an ONTOLOGICAL and PERMANENT BOND. It CAN BE lost IN THE CASE of

the reprobates taken out from Body of Christ and also can be lost in the fact of DEFECTION.**

THE TRUE WORD OF GOD

Rom.11:29;
“For the GIFTS and the CALL of God are IRREVOCABLE.”

THE CORRUPTED WORD OF GOD

Rom.11:29;
“For the GIFTS and the CALL of God are REVOCABLE.”

You see Porthos11, if I believe predestination to grace (the reprobates baptized into the

Body of Christ which is the Bride of Christ) I have no other choice, I have to believe the

CORRUPTED paragraph 7. and the CORRUPTED Word of God.

I hope you don’t suggest that I should read THE TRUE PARAGRAPH 7. and

THE TRUE WORD OF GOD and should put into my mind **THE CORRUPTED

PARAGRAPH 7.** and THE CORRUPTED WORD OF GOD in order to properly understand the text.

Blessings

LatinRight

 

[porthos11]

You’ve lost me. I don’t know what you’re trying to prove by citing a legislative text that simply says it’s now impossible to defect from the Catholic Church. It’s a revision to Canon Law and has nothing to do with predestination and reprobation. Once a Catholic, always a Catholic. Once baptized, always baptized.

That has nothing to do with whether that Catholic will go to hell or not. Baptized Catholics can go to hell, and so they are reprobate.

And no, you are not reading that document in the context for which it was written. That document deals solely with the act of formal defection, and that is a matter of law, not predestination. Why you keep referring back to that document, I don’t know.

The main problem with your “reasoning” is that you are STILL not getting the difference between predestination to grace and predestination to glory. If you cannot wrap your head around the distinction, then that’s that; I cannot continue this discussion with you.

 

[steve_b]

Blessings Steve b

I know what you mean, but that is not contradicts Scripture only contradicts 846. – It is

time to 846 updated as follows.

The PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR LEGISLATIVE TEXTS

ACTUS FORMALIS DEFECTIONIS AB ECCLESIA CATHOLICA also contradicts 846.

Vatican City, 13 March 2006
Prot. N. 10279/2006

[snip for space]

(Paragraph 7 sums up the other six paragraphs.)

1. It remains CLEAR, in ANY EVENT, that the sacramental bond of belonging to the

Body of Christ that is the Church, conferred by the baptismal character, is an

ONTOLOGICAL and PERMANENT BOND which is not lost by reason of ANY ACT or fact

of DEFECTION.

[snip for space]

Re:846 (all emphasis mine)

“How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth,is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith AND Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.”

Baptized Catholics who leave the Catholic Church and become Protestant, If they “know” what 846 teaches, thus know what scripture and Tradition teaches, and what faith and baptism means, thus know what they are doing when they do it, and don’t return, this passage describes the consequence of their choice.

Note: it’s Baptism AND faith. Not Baptism alone, not faith alone, but both faith AND Baptism. and it’s Scripture and Tradition

The documents you quote are not changing anything nor contradicting anything. Here’s why.

846is based on Scripture and (T)radition.** Note** Tradition with (T) not (t)says AND He (Jesus) himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith AND Baptism

While Baptism is permanent, Faith isn’t permanent, nor guaranteed to remain faithful and true till the end of this life… WHENa person defects from the Church, and separates from the Church Jesus established, they defected from the faith delivered once and for all to the saints. THAT is ALSO what 846 is teaching.

Said another way
(emphasis mine)

837* "*Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, i.e. are baptized AND

1. 
   *]Acccept all the means of salvation given to the Church
   ]together with her entire organization,
   ] and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion –
   ]are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops.
   ]Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body’ not ‘in heart’
   
   As an analogy. The parable of the prodigal son
   
   One son leaves his family. Is this son still a part of his family even though he left it? Yes. But what did his father say while his son was away separated from the family? “This son of mine was DEAD.” Luke 15:11-24 . Had the son remained away he would have perished. Taking this out of parable status, that son would still be his father’s son, but would have perished, and not have been saved 846 , 837
   
   Let’s not forget who told the story. It was Jesus
   
   (to be continued)

 

[Church_Militant]

Latin Right,

You cite scripture almost as one who holds to Sola Scriptura would, however, your citations are somewhat out of context, since we also have Our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ specifically stating in*** Revelation 3:5
“The victor will thus be dressed in white, and I will never erase his name from the book of life but will acknowledge his name in the presence of my Father and of his angels.”

Now if we see here that Christ Himself states that some will be erased from the book of life and we know from Revelation 20:15 that it says, “******Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the pool of fire.”

***Then we have no need of further argument since we know that these are scriptural facts. God saves or condemns no one in violation of their free will. Ample example of this is also found in Matthew 13:1-30 where we find an explanation of the fruits of seeds sown. There are those who endure for a time and then fall away and please take careful note of verse 30 which speaks of their final end.

God desires all mankind to be saved (***1st Timothy 2:4 ***Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.) but not all will accept His call to the marriage supper of the Lamb. OSAS/ Eternal Security of the Believer is a deceptive and errant doctrine that leads to presumption.

The Catholic Church does not now and never has taught predestination such as Calvinists errantly teach.

 

[Michael_Francis]

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