Is it arrogant to believe one will go to Heaven someday?

[whatevergirl]

A comedian (who will remain nameless) who has a show on HBO, is an atheist, and often pokes fun at people from all religions. He is not my fave comedian by any stretch, but if I’m flipping through the channels, and land on his show…I’ll often spend a moment or two soaking up his insults. (why I don’t know) On one of his recent shows…he said that “religious people are arrogant because they act as though they believe they will be in Heaven.”

I thought that was an astounding statement, and made me pause. I never considered myself arrogant. I never considered my ponderings of what life will be like in Heaven…as arrogance.

So…is it arrogant for any of us to feel like we have an opportunity to see God someday? I often find myself feeling utterly unworthy of Heaven…so, I’m not always convinced of my achieving salvation, although, I have read Scripture…and it tells me a different story.

Any takers on this one? Do you think that believing in seeing God, someday…is arrogance?

 

[LilyM]

Absolutely not. And I don’t think this comedian was referring to people with your own attitude (which sounds true to St Paul ‘working out my salvation in fear and trembling’).

I think rather that he was referring to the more radical OSAS (once-saved-always-saved) type of belief. The people who hold that saying the Sinners’ Prayer, or being baptised, or simply attending church every Sunday, gives one an automatic ticket to Heaven, no matter what the rest of one’s life may be like.

Or the type who even go beyond this and dare to pronounce on the state of the souls of other individuals.

 

[whatevergirl]

Absolutely not. And I don’t think this comedian was referring to people with your own attitude (which sounds true to St Paul ‘working out my salvation in fear and trembling’).

I think rather that he was referring to the more radical OSAS (once-saved-always-saved) type of belief. The people who hold that saying the Sinners’ Prayer, or being baptised, or simply attending church every Sunday, gives one an automatic ticket to Heaven, no matter what the rest of one’s life may be like.

Or the type who even go beyond this and dare to pronounce on the state of the souls of other individuals.

Hi LILY;
I really appreciate your reply…that helps a lot. Not that I am sitting up at night wondering what this guy meant…lol…but, still. It helps to know where others (non believers) are coming from. I think this comedian was once Catholic? I’ll have to check that.

 

[scared]

My first thought was he is a comedian really how much stock would I put in what he said? Not much. I am sure there are people who really are arrogant by way of assumption. I am of the premise that I am going to Hell so if I do by chance make it to heaven, not a hope in this world that is happening, I would be better off than I thought.

scared

 

[prv]

A comedian (who will remain nameless) who has a show on HBO, is an atheist, and often pokes fun at people from all religions. He is not my fave comedian by any stretch, but if I’m flipping through the channels, and land on his show…I’ll often spend a moment or two soaking up his insults. (why I don’t know) On one of his recent shows…he said that “religious people are arrogant because they act as though they believe they will be in Heaven.”

I thought that was an astounding statement, and made me pause. I never considered myself arrogant. I never considered my ponderings of what life will be like in Heaven…as arrogance.

So…is it arrogant for any of us to feel like we have an opportunity to see God someday? I often find myself feeling utterly unworthy of Heaven…so, I’m not always convinced of my achieving salvation, although, I have read Scripture…and it tells me a different story.

Any takers on this one? Do you think that believing in seeing God, someday…is arrogance?

Considering that he is an atheist, I’m not sure if he is in any position whatsoever to crticize this, since he doesn’t believe in God and by extension, heaven anyway. The Catholic Church teaches us to hope for eternal life, since this is the will of God.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

1721 God put us in the world to know, to love, and to serve him, and so to come to paradise. Beatitude makes us “partakers of the divine nature” and of eternal life.[21] With beatitude, man enters into the glory of Christ[22] and into the joy of the Trinitarian life.

However, to say that we know with absolute certainty that we are going to heaven, that would be pride.

 

[godbless]

There are some pretty arrogent religious people I have to agree. I’ve met some really arrogent ones who are self rightous and judgemental. There’s a guy at work, he’s not Catholic but is an evangelical. He sounds very smug to me. But there ae also more humble religious people, so you can’t generalize.

Our faith said that we should never presume that we are automatically saved, although God does promise us many things and we should also trust him. I don’t see anything wronge with childlike trust in God and his mercy

 

[BlestOne]

How many times have I laughed at such a thought? The first time someone presented me with the idea of knowing that they will go to heaven, I admit, I was shocked. Since that time, I have assumed a comical view of these folks. I know I am wrong in this, but I can’t help but picture them arrogantly strutting up to St Peter and asking if their “house” in heaven is ready.

Tonight I really had a good laugh at a show on TBN that a man was describing his “house” in heaven… right down to the Queen Anne furniture and perfect landscaping. I couldn’t believe how materialistic he sounded. To think that his concern was with the furnishings in his heavenly accomodations! We have no clue what heaven looks like, in fact, if I was to guess… I would think that there would be no need of private spaces and furniture. Why even have furniture? Will we have a need of furniture? I somehow picture myself in any number of positions, on my knees, dancing, even floating on some fluffy cloud praising God every moment, not checking out my new digs that God personally selected for me.

Somehow it seems to me that those who are that attached to “worldly possessions” aren’t quite ready for heaven anyway. Anyway, back on topic… until the moment I cease to live in this world, I can’t imagine knowing, without a shadow of a doubt, that I am even good enough to enter the kingdom of my savior. Even then, I imagine I will be atoning for the temporal effects of my many sins for a very long time. I am so imperfect! There is so much preparation to make me worthy of his kingdom! I just can’t imagine thinking I am fit for God’s presence. I too, believe I must work out my salvation in fear and trembling.

 

[godbless]

I think people think of a house as a comfortable place with a pleasant design. I’m sure many faithful Catholics are also materialist. In fact our church has been accused of materialism because of our ornate cathedrals with expensive artwork. So the fact that other people who are sure they are going to Heaven imagine having a comfortable and beautiful house there just is their way of conceptuallizing Heaven in human terms. So it might be better for us not to judge them too harshly.

 

[wcknight]

I certainly hope and pray that I will get to Heaven, but I never assume it is a done deal. A while back one of our iterant priests on his last day in our parish said goodbye to me and said, I’ll see you again when we get to Heaven. I was quite shocked and taken aback.

I never thought of it that way, but I knew where he was coming from. Odds were we would not meet again in this lifetime. I didn’t know how to respond since that was really the first time that I ever really thought about actually achieving Heaven. I am aware of all the promises that scriptures says about attaining Heaven and I set that as my ultimate goal.

I don’t think it is wrong to believe that we will get to Heaven or to imagine what Heaven will be like. Even Jesus tells us to seek first the Kingdom of God, everything else is secondary.

BUT I do think it would be a bit arrogant to demand or believe that we are guaranteed Heaven. God is the creator of the universe, who are we to demand anything.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Brothers and Sisters:

At one point, when I was a lot younger and before I fell, I probably had more assurance.

Now that I’ve had my own personal trip to Jericho and have fallen among the thieves mentioned in the Parable, I have to say that I’m not so sure. I know that I can fall at any time if I take my eyes off my Lord and that what keep me on the narrow road are His love and grace and the power of His Holy Spirit.

*You were dead in your transgressions and sins in which you once lived following the age of this world, following the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the disobedient. All of us once lived among them in the desires of our flesh, following the wishes of the flesh and the impulses, and we were by nature children of wrath, like the rest.

But God, who is rich in mercy, because of the great love he had for us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, brought us to life with Christ (by grace you have been saved), raised us up with him, and seated us with him in the heavens in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so no one may boast. For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them.

Therefore, remember that at one time you, Gentiles in the flesh, called the uncircumcision by those called the circumcision, which is done in the flesh by human hands, were at that time without Christ, alienated from the community of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have become near by the blood of Christ.

For he is our peace, he who made both one and broke down the dividing wall of enmity, through his flesh, abolishing the law with its commandments and legal claims, that he might create in himself one new person in place of the two, thus establishing peace, and might reconcile both with God, in one body, through the cross, putting that enmity to death by it.

He came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near, for through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.

So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the holy ones and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the capstone. Through him the whole structure is held together and grows into a temple sacred in the Lord; in him you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.
Eph. 2:1-22 NAB*

Acccording to that Scripture, we don’t make it into heaven by ourselves, but we make it into heaven together, as a Church. That means we’re not only responsible to cooperate with God’s brace and His Church, we have an obligation to pray for our brothers and sisters in Christ and to get to know them and care about them. We are going to see each other for the rest of eternity of God has His way.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Brothers and Sisters:

At one point, when I was a lot younger and before I fell, I probably had more assurance.

Now that I’ve had my own personal trip to Jericho and have fallen among the thieves mentioned in the Parable, I have to say that I’m not so sure. I know that I can fall at any time if I take my eyes off my Lord and that what keep me on the narrow road are His love and grace and the power of His Holy Spirit.

*You were dead in your transgressions and sins in which you once lived following the age of this world, following the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the disobedient. All of us once lived among them in the desires of our flesh, following the wishes of the flesh and the impulses, and we were by nature children of wrath, like the rest.

But God, who is rich in mercy, because of the great love he had for us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, brought us to life with Christ (by grace you have been saved), raised us up with him, and seated us with him in the heavens in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so no one may boast. For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them.

Therefore, remember that at one time you, Gentiles in the flesh, called the uncircumcision by those called the circumcision, which is done in the flesh by human hands, were at that time without Christ, alienated from the community of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have become near by the blood of Christ.

For he is our peace, he who made both one and broke down the dividing wall of enmity, through his flesh, abolishing the law with its commandments and legal claims, that he might create in himself one new person in place of the two, thus establishing peace, and might reconcile both with God, in one body, through the cross, putting that enmity to death by it.

He came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near, for through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.

So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the holy ones and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the capstone. Through him the whole structure is held together and grows into a temple sacred in the Lord; in him you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.
Eph. 2:1-22 NAB*

Acccording to that Scripture, we don’t make it into heaven by ourselves, but we make it into heaven together, as a Church. That means we’re not only responsible to cooperate with God’s brace and His Church, we have an obligation to pray for our brothers and sisters in Christ and to get to know them and care about them. We are going to see each other for the rest of eternity of God has His way.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[blackrobe]

None of us is worthy of heaven but we are predestined in Christ to be there. Anyone can opt out by refusing the gift, but heaven is the default destination.

Puts me in mind of what I used to say to street evangelists when they opened a conversation by asking if I were saved: I’ve been justified; my salvation is being worked out.

JSA

 

[TheGarg]

Hi LILY;
I really appreciate your reply…that helps a lot. Not that I am sitting up at night wondering what this guy meant…lol…but, still. It helps to know where others (non believers) are coming from. I think this comedian was once Catholic? I’ll have to check that.

If Goerge Carlin knew anyting about Catholocism, he would head straight for confession.

 

[AndyF]

whatevergirl:

One needs to consider the atheist from his point of view. If one pauses to think about it, a religion that expounds an afterlife reward of a kind based on what was deserving of his conduct in life, is really a threat to him. Once he had the belief that he will receive a comfortable decomposition, unaware if his state and what is happening to his body, because he considers himself non existing. No payment to society for past sins, his progeny destined to share his fate, an all around summation of brief existance for a life where even obeying laws are optional.

All of a sudden, he realizes this cushy scenerio may be a facade. Maybe, just maybe they could be right. So the atheist is drawn to religion like a bee to a hive. Being here, he’ll always put on a brave show of independance. The religious person becomes a curious object for amusement. His conscience tells him to forget about this risky game of Russion Roulette, “get it wrong and you’ve really had it”.

The reality is he’s hanging around for tidbits from the table that will throw him over the fence that he’s sitting on. Logically this reason doesn’t make sense as well, as life for him as he defines it presupposes the lessening of wasted time. Every minute counts in this world of no restrictions,rules and continuous parties. So his finding amusement and taking the time to consider our “wasting our time”, should warn him that he breaches his own precept. Rules are to be obeyed as long as they need to bend to them, because the excuse of morality without reward would be illogical. A servant without a master makes no sense. One may say “I’m a good citizen, and believe the morality of the laws”. If one only lives for a time, then the prority is to make a living any way that is permitted, or one can get away with.

But yes, being arrogant would indeed be a sin for a Christian, if that is would it is, but God makes the statement Himself by saying we are destined to His table, if we wish it. That is we see our desire. If the accusation were true, better the error is pointed out by one who does not wish to repeat the sin of Satan, ie: the lack of charity due God for the graces He has given.

The best way to approach them is as unwilling converts accepted with patience and a welcoming attitude depending on their disposition. The hostile ones can be ignored until that last minute of life where most make the wise choice, albeit a bit late.

AndyF

 

[whatevergirl]

whatevergirl:

One needs to consider the atheist from his point of view. If one pauses to think about it, a religion that expounds an afterlife reward of a kind based on what was deserving of his conduct in life, is really a threat to him. Once he had the belief that he will receive a comfortable decomposition, unaware if his state and what is happening to his body, because he considers himself non existing. No payment to society for past sins, his progeny destined to share his fate, an all around summation of brief existance for a life where even obeying laws are optional.

All of a sudden, he realizes this cushy scenerio may be a facade. Maybe, just maybe they could be right. So the atheist is drawn to religion like a bee to a hive. Being here, he’ll always put on a brave show of independance. The religious person becomes a curious object for amusement. His conscience tells him to forget about this risky game of Russion Roulette, “get it wrong and you’ve really had it”.

The reality is he’s hanging around for tidbits from the table that will throw him over the fence that he’s sitting on. Logically this reason doesn’t make sense as well, as life for him as he defines it presupposes the lessening of wasted time. Every minute counts in this world of no restrictions,rules and continuous parties. So his finding amusement and taking the time to consider our “wasting our time”, should warn him that he breaches his own precept. Rules are to be obeyed as long as they need to bend to them, because the excuse of morality without reward would be illogical. A servant without a master makes no sense. One may say “I’m a good citizen, and believe the morality of the laws”. If one only lives for a time, then the prority is to make a living any way that is permitted, or one can get away with.

But yes, being arrogant would indeed be a sin for a Christian, if that is would it is, but God makes the statement Himself by saying we are destined to His table, if we wish it. That is we see our desire. If the accusation were true, better the error is pointed out by one who does not wish to repeat the sin of Satan, ie: the lack of charity due God for the graces He has given.

The best way to approach them is as unwilling converts accepted with patience and a welcoming attitude depending on their disposition. The hostile ones can be ignored until that last minute of life where most make the wise choice, albeit a bit late.

AndyF

that’s a good way of explaining that, andy…thank you. I think that we should hope for Heaven…but thinking that we have any control over achieving Heaven ourselves, could be interpreted as arrogant. Perhaps the comedian meant that he felt there are actually people out there who feel that because they follow ‘this or that’ that they in fact, will achieve Heaven. I guess that is possible.

But…to hope for it would not be arrogant…but to think we ‘deserve’ it, would be.

Thank you, all, for your insights…it’s been interesting reading your views!

The comedian, by the way…is Bill Maher…although, I have never seen the comedy in him, really…he’s rather negative if you ask me…When did sitting around, negatively commenting on the government and endlessly bashing George Bush…become comedy? lol Now, that’s funny.

 

[MyPhilomena]

A comedian (who will remain nameless) who has a show on HBO, is an atheist, and often pokes fun at people from all religions. He is not my fave comedian by any stretch, but if I’m flipping through the channels, and land on his show…I’ll often spend a moment or two soaking up his insults. (why I don’t know) On one of his recent shows…he said that “religious people are arrogant because they act as though they believe they will be in Heaven.”

I thought that was an astounding statement, and made me pause. I never considered myself arrogant. I never considered my ponderings of what life will be like in Heaven…as arrogance.

So…is it arrogant for any of us to feel like we have an opportunity to see God someday? I often find myself feeling utterly unworthy of Heaven…so, I’m not always convinced of my achieving salvation, although, I have read Scripture…and it tells me a different story.

Any takers on this one? Do you think that believing in seeing God, someday…is arrogance?

no, I do not believe it to be arrogant to want to see God some day! no its not arrogance to want to go to heaven to be with Him either. it is ones hope to go to heaven to be with God. why would anyone want to hope for less? certainly not arrogant at all.

 

[whatevergirl]

no, I do not believe it to be arrogant to want to see God some day! no its not arrogance to want to go to heaven to be with Him either. it is ones hope to go to heaven to be with God. why would anyone want to hope for less? certainly not arrogant at all.

maybe it’s expecting it…perhaps? but i hear ya!

 

[MyPhilomena]

maybe it’s expecting it…perhaps? but i hear ya!

perhaps one could see it that way. but also, to hope to go to heaven is most certainly not arrogant. perhaps to expect it is. good point you brought up though!

 

[mosher]

While it is not arrogant to desire heaven or to be sure that God will provide sufficient grace to get to heaven it is a sin to presume one is going to heaven.

 

[Black_Jaque]

You can maintain a strong hope. And it can give the appearance of confidence. But you can never know.

Will I live to see tomorrow? I can’t say for certain. But my hope is strong such that I will “arrogantly” conduct my affairs as if I’ll awake tomorrow (Imagine the audacity of investing in a retirement account! tsk-tsk). While at the same time, I will prepare my soul for the event that the thief should come in the night.

Rather, what is truly arrogant is the people who think they are too good for Hell. They think, “Uncle Elmer never went to church, but he was a good guy. I can’t imagine he would go to Hell. And if Uncle Elmer is not going to Hell, surely I can’t go there.”

Pride compares itself to others such as will produce a flattering outcome.

This same “Uncle Elmer” reasoning can ultimately lead to the conclusion that there is no Hell.