Is it charitable

[BobCatholic]

You won’t give details about what actually happened, beyond saying he rebelled against legitimate authority. What do YOU mean by rebelled? Do you mean he refused a clear directive? Did he ask for an explanation? Express a disagreement? And what’s the clear authority in your scenario – an accepted and required teaching of the church?

I used the example of Korah and Moses. Read Numbers 16. Then your questions are answered.

 

[Ruthie]

Bob, you’re not going to like my reply… please open your mind to it.

You said,

“Person#1 behaves in an egotistical self-aggrandizing manner, and rebels against a legitimate authority which exercises itself legitimately. (for the sake of argument: open your Bible to Numbers 16, Korah versus Moses)”

I see this as less than charitable. I can also understand why you might be accused of “reading someone’s soul.”

It’s **not **because you pointed out that they were disobeying legitimate authority. That’s a fine thing to do, if you do it with charity.

It’s because you accuse them of being “egotistical and self-aggrandizing.” How would you know?

You even accused Korah of being egotistical. Where does Numbers 16 say that?

Korah said to Moses, “You have gone too far! For all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the LORD is among them; why then do you exalt yourselves above the assembly of the LORD?” (RSV)

Sounds like he was accusing Moses and Aaron of being “egotistical and self-aggrandizing.”

Moses treated it as a legitimate question - he proposed a test. He didn’t say, “Korah, shut your egotistical mouth.” Even if Moses felt Korah was being prideful, he didn’t say so. He left it up to God.

Ruthie

 

[BobCatholic]

Bob, you’re not going to like my reply… please open your mind to it.

You said,

“Person#1 behaves in an egotistical self-aggrandizing manner, and rebels against a legitimate authority which exercises itself legitimately. (for the sake of argument: open your Bible to Numbers 16, Korah versus Moses)”

I see this as less than charitable. I can also understand why you might be accused of “reading someone’s soul.”

It’s **not **because you pointed out that they were disobeying legitimate authority. That’s a fine thing to do, if you do it with charity.

It’s because you accuse them of being “egotistical and self-aggrandizing.” How would you know?

Satan rebelled against God due to the sin of Pride.
This is the root of all rebellion against legitimate authority. All legitimate authority, legitimately exercised comes from God.

And how would I know that Korah and his brethren were ego-tripping?

Now Korah son of Izhar, son of Kohath the Levite, and the Reubenites Dathan and Abiram sons of Eliab, and On son of Peleth were proud and rebelled against Moses with two hundred and fifty Israelites who were leaders of the community

catholic.org/bible/book.php?id=4

So yes, they were prideful and full of themselves.

Even in the verse you cite, there is evidence.

Korah said to Moses, “You have gone too far! For all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the LORD is among them; why then do you exalt yourselves above the assembly of the LORD?” (RSV)

In this place, he was claiming his holiness. There he was exalting himself (and the assembly)

Sounds like he was accusing Moses and Aaron of being “egotistical and self-aggrandizing.”

he was projecting

Moses treated it as a legitimate question - he proposed a test. He didn’t say, “Korah, shut your egotistical mouth.” Even if Moses felt Korah was being prideful, he didn’t say so. He left it up to God.

And God showed that Korah and his brethren were wrong.

Can this same thing be done with legitimate authority today? Can we call upon the Lord and have him smite the enemies of the Church? Or would that be putting God to the test?

 

[BobCatholic]

From the way this thread is going, I’ve come to the following conclusion:

There is no way to determine if someone is acting pridefully or ego-tripping without reading their soul.

I disagree with this and wish I knew how to express myself better.

 

[aspawloski4th]

funny how much charitable is mentioned here. not my parents, not any priest I personally know, nt any nun I had in school, every worried about being charitalble or teaching me to be that way. doing right in the eyes of God was what was tought to me, and if other dont like it , so be it.

 

[Kathrin]

Ok, what if you are worried you might put the other person off so much that she will just block off any further conversation with you?

I am in such a situation - my uncle (separated from his former wife) has a new girlfriend. His parents (my grandparents) aren’t so happy about that (they are also catholic).
I think they PROBABLY have a sexual relationship too (even though, of course I can’t know).
My uncle talked to me about it.
If I just outright said to him: “I think the two of you are living in sin”, that might not just hurt his feelings, but also maybe make him angry at me in a way that will prevent me from being a further “good influence” on him.

I would say - it is ok to wait for a good opportunity to speak about things like this?
One thing I did, I did ask him if he was happy being with a new girlfriend while still technically married. And I did say I understood my grandparents’ point of view. I also stressed that I don’t believe we should judge other people.

Kathrin

 

[Pug]

funny how much charitable is mentioned here. not my parents, not any priest I personally know, nt any nun I had in school, every worried about being charitalble or teaching me to be that way. doing right in the eyes of God was what was tought to me, and if other dont like it , so be it.

Q. 814. When are we bound to admonish the sinner?
A. We are bound to admonish the sinner when the following conditions are fulfilled:

1. 
   *]When his fault is a mortal sin;
   *]When we have authority or influence over him, and
   *]When there is reason to believe that our warning will not make him worse instead of better.

1. 
   I take that third point from the Baltimore Catechism to mean that charity is of real concern. The concern is to make the person better and not worse. This is charity. The whole point of fraternal correction and the like is charity, either for that brother, or for a brother who is watching, or for a brother who is being affected by the sin, etc. I would classify fraternal correction under charity, rather than faith, hope, justice, etc. It is rather sad that no one ever mentioned that charity was important in this area.

 

[BobCatholic]

From the way this thread is going, I’ve come to the following conclusion:

There is no way to determine if someone is acting pridefully or ego-tripping without reading their soul.

I disagree with this and wish I knew how to express myself better.

So I take it there’s no answer to this?

 

[Pug]

So I take it there’s no answer to this?

My best guess is that you are talking about the issue of women priests, or EMHC, or defying the bishop, or something similar.

Are those issues motivated by pride a priori? Perhaps this is what you are asking. I think in these times, people do not perceive or categorize the act of questioning authority as the sin of pride. People are taught that it is all on them to figure out what is right and wrong. Have you ever been the victim of a values clarification class (or whatever they call those things)?

Of course, thinking it is all on us to figure everything out may in fact be rampant pride, but if so, the awareness of this is dim, at best. However, some people sure do know better than to buck authority, or at least it is highly improbable that they are “invincibly ignorant”.

Just what actions I should take if I see someone bucking authority is a different question.

 

[MrIrish]

So I take it there’s no answer to this?

My own opinion Bob, is that at some point you need to “dust off your sandals” and move on. Some people aren’t willing to listen because they don’t want to be told that their own behavior is wrong. Think about it - if there is an external, eternal Truth out there, then that means that many actions can be categorized as Good or Evil (or neutral, of course). Many folks don’t like to be told they are behaving in a sinful fashion, most especially when they themselves know they are acting badly. Perhaps you are seeing a kind of reflection of this situation in the discussions you have been having.

BTW, are you by chance talking about homosexual acts?

 

[MrIrish]

• Someone is doing something wrong. It is a grave sin. You tell them it is OK so you don’t hurt their feelings.
• Someone is doing something wrong. Another person sees this behavior and thinks it is OK. You tell the second person it is OK so you don’t hurt their feelings.

To do either of these is to cause grave scandal, a serious sin.

 

[BobCatholic]

To do either of these is to cause grave scandal, a serious sin.

I agree. That is why I don’t do those.