Is it ignorant to judge and condemn God?

[Abba]

Is it ignorant to judge and condemn God? It would seem to be common sense that to do so is ignorant.

How would you tackle this mode of thinking:

Only an evil God would create hell and condemn people to it for all eternity. Even if the best for human beings is to live eternally in his presence - I don’t want to. I don’t want to live with a God that sends people to hell. As far as I am concerned, he does not exist. I much rather go to hell than to be with him. I am sick and tired of feeling guilty. I had it. The Catholic Church is a guilt religion and I am tired of feeling guilty and fearing eternal damnation. God can keep his church and his heaven. I will live my life out as best I can; free from God and his church.

This mode of thinking to me is a judgement and condemnation of God. God has been judged and found guilty - guilty of being an evil God.

 

[davidv]

Is it ignorant to judge and condemn God? It would seem to be common sense that to do so is ignorant.

How would you tackle this mode of thinking:

Only an evil God would create hell and condemn people to it for all eternity. Even if the best for human beings is to live eternally in his presence - I don’t want to. I don’t want to live with a God that sends people to hell. As far as I am concerned, he does not exist. I much rather go to hell than to be with him. I am sick and tired of feeling guilty. I had it. The Catholic Church is a guilt religion and I am tired of feeling guilty and fearing eternal damnation. God can keep his church and his heaven. I will live my life out as best I can; free from God and his church.

This mode of thinking to me is a judgement and condemnation of God. God has been judged and found guilty.

I think the source of this thinking is more likely to be pride and selfishness and not ignorance.

 

[spiderweb]

I much rather go to hell than to be with him.

And that was why hell was created. God does not send them to hell, they choose to go there. They would rather live with their sins, than to feel “guilty” and accepting God’s love and mercy by repenting.

Guilt comes from within, and not from without. The only way a person can feel guilty is if they know that they are guilty, otherwise they feel like a victim and falsely accused. The Church offers forgiveness and mercy, the individual person supplies their own guilt in order to be forgiven and accept mercy.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

And that was why hell was created. God does not send them to hell, they choose to go there. They would rather live with their sins, than to feel “guilty” and accepting God’s love and mercy by repenting.

Guilt comes from within, and not from without. The only way a person can feel guilty is if they know that they are guilty, otherwise they feel like a victim and falsely accused. The Church offers forgiveness and mercy, the individual person supplies their own guilt in order to be forgiven and accept mercy.

Pretty much this. Hell exists because there are souls that would rather spend eternity suffering than spend eternity with God.

You can’t rationally blame God for giving people what they want, especially when those same people complain that God’s laws say its wrong to do what they want…

 

[AFerri48]

How would you condemn God?

 

[Glomung]

Over the ages, Jesus has told the saints (and others) that ANYONE can come to Him and find love, forgiveness, and reconciliation, all they have to do is ASK.
If they are not willing to ask then there is nothing more that God can do.

Hell is full of people who could not be bothered to try to end up anywhere else.

 

[Abba]

And that was why hell was created. God does not send them to hell, they choose to go there. They would rather live with their sins, than to feel “guilty” and accepting God’s love and mercy by repenting.

The reason that he/she does not want to live eternally with a God that created hell, sends people to hell or even allows for souls to eternally suffer - seems to me like a bit of a cover up. I have difficulties imagining a scenario inwhere a person all of the sudden or out of the blues, one day due to an intellectual deduction - God created hell therefore God is evil - because he is evil as far as I am concern I much rather reject him and live out of his presence; decides to reject God and all that involves him.

I see people pretend that it is merely due to an intellectual position but it seems to me that there is more there than meets the eye. There is anger and I don’t think all the anger can be attributed to the erroneous understanding that God is evil.

Gotta go…

Thank you all for your contributions so far.

 

[fisherman_carl]

Yes. I would say that God is all good and is love. Therefore, if hell is an eternal state it is so by necessity. And not because God wants anyone to go there. Or wants to see someone suffer for eternity. And not because God is powerless to prevent it. I have been thinking about the relationship between power and love. God has the power to force us to be good. Yet, he doesn’t use this power. God has the power to create our existence. Yet he does not dominate us. Because love isn’t having power over someone. Love is giving power to the beloved to allow them to be themselves, to accept or reject your love.

If we take the Bible as a clue we see there are two ways that it talks about. One way leads to spiritual abundance. The other to spiritual depravity. God’s way isn’t just God getting us to follow a bunch of rules. We need to see his way as the way that is best for our souls. The way we were created for. The way that satisfies us as laid out by our maker. Who else knows us better than him? So who else could know what truly fulfills us? Thus Christians should be the ultimate health food advocates for the soul.

You can compare the two ways to eating healthy vs junk food. If you eat healthy your body will benefit the most. But if you eat only junk food your body will suffer. Both benefit or suffer as a result of the choices they made. God simply allows us to experience the consequences of our actions. He doesn’t force us to eat healthy.

Hell is really the state of a souls final choice to reject God and his way. The result is something less than healthy for that individual. Heaven and hell really provide finality to the issue. Otherwise if there was no finality not only could people leave hell for heaven, but people could leave heaven for hell. In other words at some point our will is set if there is to be any finality to it all.

 

[808Catholic]

And that was why hell was created. God does not send them to hell, they choose to go there. They would rather live with their sins, than to feel “guilty” and accepting God’s love and mercy by repenting.

Guilt comes from within, and not from without. The only way a person can feel guilty is if they know that they are guilty, otherwise they feel like a victim and falsely accused. The Church offers forgiveness and mercy, the individual person supplies their own guilt in order to be forgiven and accept mercy.

 

[808Catholic]

How would you condemn God?

RE the OP, to judge presumes authority. Who gave the authority to judge God? This authority would have to come from someone/something above God. God is the highest so there can be nothing above Him. If there is, we’d refer to God as “god”.

Condemn infers power to enforce the judgement. Like a secular judge can find a defendant before him guilty of stealing something and impose a jail sentence. Who can bind God to the “judgement”? Again, you’d need more power than God to impose your will against His.

Is it ignorant to attempt the impossible? If don’t actually believe in God, maybe it would be called accurately “ignorant”. If you believe in the God Who created the Universe, I wouldn’t call it “ignorant”. More along the lines of “insane”.

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

If the speaker is a person that has been “done” in the sacraments but not evangelised and catechised, like (sadly) so many others, then that is a difficult birth.

If this person is dialoguing frankly with God which is a good thing for us to do - no matter how daft the wording being used sometimes - and is hungry of heart, then God will surely help this person to advance in knowledge of His ways.

I pray there will be people in that person’s life who will demonstrate the life of Jesus within and the power of the Holy Spirit.

“The letter kills” (the Spirit gives life) and some doctors of the law have obstructed the way to God. I think that is what this person is describing.

 

[fisherman_carl]

The reason that he/she does not want to live eternally with a God that created hell, sends people to hell or even allows for souls to eternally suffer - seems to me like a bit of a cover up. I have difficulties imagining a scenario inwhere a person all of the sudden or out of the blues, one day due to an intellectual deduction - God created hell therefore God is evil - because he is evil as far as I am concern I much rather reject him and live out of his presence; decides to reject God and all that involves him.

I see people pretend that it is merely due to an intellectual position but it seems to me that there is more there than meets the eye. There is anger and I don’t think all the anger can be attributed to the erroneous understanding that God is evil.

Gotta go…

Thank you all for your contributions so far.

Curious. I noticed that your location says “At the foot of the Cross”. If I take that literally then that must mean you are in Jerusalem. However, if I take that figuratively, then it means you could be located anywhere, but spiritually identify with Christ. So are you in Jerusalem or not?

 

[phil_at_dayboro]

I dont think we humans have a right to judge anything

 

[Abba]

How would you condemn God?

In an individual personal way. I, as an individual person, can evaluate God/judge and decide he is not worthy of me, my time, my company and decide to keep him out of my life/sentence-condemnation. People do it all the time.

But, I am trying to understand how to respond to people that are in this state. There are some where it is obvious there is more than meets the eyes. That is, it is not as simple as they wish to present it; that they arrived at such a state of mind out of a pure intellectual exercise. Their obstinance (which has the effect on me as someone whose brain froze or is suffering from brain paralysis) comes off as a guard/a wall of protection that must not be allowed to be penetrated. The wall is protected in such ways that anger surfaces, but the anger (which can be of different types and to different degrees) does not match the disposition of a person that has arrived at a point due to an emotionless intellectual deduction.

To cover up even more the anger and it’s cause/s; some add more layers to the cover up aside from the intellectual deduction they cling to; such as using the crimes committed by Catholics etc some even become professional atheists who dedicate their lives to attacking the Church. This to me is so senseless - why attack something you supposedly do not believe in? I wouldn’t attack the Smurfs, Santa Claus, Irish elfs,Lilliputians etc… They of course would argue that neither Santa Claus nor the Lilliputians are harming humanity.

What a tangled web some people find themselves in which they themselves tangled up. Some, it is obvious, need outside help to disentangle the web. I just think it is a fruitful exercise to try to define the causes and stages that leads a person to those tangled webs. Much like people have defined the stages of mourning, for instance.

There are different causes but a lot people seem to prefer not to keep it personal and join a club sort of speak - a contrary religion or anti-Catholic organization.

Well, for those of you who are still awake and made it all the way to this sentence… thank you for reading. I hope I did not bore you much.

Bonne nuit!

 

[Abba]

Curious. I noticed that your location says “At the foot of the Cross”. If I take that literally then that must mean you are in Jerusalem. However, if I take that figuratively, then it means you could be located anywhere, but spiritually identify with Christ. So are you in Jerusalem or not?

Spiritually.

 

[Abba]

My favorite professor, may he rest in peace, wrote a book on anger. I always found it peculiar that he should have picked that topic to research and write on. He was a philosopher theologian. This morning for the first time - it interests me very much. I am going to see if I can get a hold of a copy and read it.

We can address the issue spiritually but I think we can also address the issue from a psychological perspective. There seems to be degrees and stages that lead to an obstinate state of mind (that does not compute - that does not compute) with an anger base that is directed at God.

 

[OneSheep]

Is it ignorant to judge and condemn God? It would seem to be common sense that to do so is ignorant.

How would you tackle this mode of thinking:

Only an evil God would create hell and condemn people to it for all eternity. Even if the best for human beings is to live eternally in his presence - I don’t want to. I don’t want to live with a God that sends people to hell. As far as I am concerned, he does not exist. I much rather go to hell than to be with him. I am sick and tired of feeling guilty. I had it. The Catholic Church is a guilt religion and I am tired of feeling guilty and fearing eternal damnation. God can keep his church and his heaven. I will live my life out as best I can; free from God and his church.

This mode of thinking to me is a judgement and condemnation of God. God has been judged and found guilty - guilty of being an evil God.

Well, Abba,

For many Catholics, it is a matter of ignorance (or at least misguided) to believe that God “sends” anyone to hell. It is believed that a person chooses hell, and God respects that choice.

I prefer what a priest once told us: “In my opinion, a person does not get to hell unless they go screaming and kicking against God the whole way.”

And then, I like what Bishop Barron said about the infinite ways that God could convince a person where is the right place to be. He said he would could be easily enticed by a Bob Dylan concert.

God Bless.

 

[spiderweb]

But, I am trying to understand how to respond to people that are in this state. There are some where it is obvious there is more than meets the eyes. That is, it is not as simple as they wish to present it; that they arrived at such a state of mind out of a pure intellectual exercise. Their obstinance (which has the effect on me as someone whose brain froze or is suffering from brain paralysis) comes off as a guard/a wall of protection that must not be allowed to be penetrated. The wall is protected in such ways that anger surfaces, but the anger (which can be of different types and to different degrees) does not match the disposition of a person that has arrived at a point due to an emotionless intellectual deduction.

What I have found from personal experience is that the person views God as the enemy of pleasure. From this, God must not want my happiness and therefor God is evil. Depending on the individual person, I think in most cases the best thing to do is to love them. Allow them to see the love of God through you. And also pray that the Holy Spirit open their hearts to authentic love.

What a tangled web some people find themselves in which they themselves tangled up.

This fits me perfectly!

 

[rossum]

Is it ignorant to judge and condemn God?

That depends on the basis on which the judgement is made. I am Buddhist, so I judge on the basis of Buddhist morality. Since Buddhist morality applies to all living things, gods included, then it is legitimate for a Buddhist to form an opinion on God’s actions.

In Buddhist terms, the Old Testament God is not a good God. He kills far too many people, some of them innocent. He accepts animal sacrifices. He is at times angry and jealous, both unhelpful emotions.

Jesus is a far better example, He does not kill people, does not get jealous and is only rarely angry. He does not require animal sacrifices.

The answer to your question depends on the basis on which the judgement is made.

$0.02

rossum

 

[Abba]

That depends on the basis on which the judgement is made. I am Buddhist, so I judge on the basis of Buddhist morality. Since Buddhist morality applies to all living things, gods included, then it is legitimate for a Buddhist to form an opinion on God’s actions.

I am not very familiar with Buddhism. Can you provides some quotes from the religion or an exposition?

In Buddhist terms, the Old Testament God is not a good God. He kills far too many people, some of them innocent. He accepts animal sacrifices. He is at times angry and jealous, both unhelpful emotions.

Do Buddhist believe a God exists?

Jesus is a far better example, He does not kill people, does not get jealous and is only rarely angry. He does not require animal sacrifices.

For their hardness of heart, God had to approach and deal with them as He did. When they were ready to receive the Messiah He came.

The answer to your question depends on the basis on which the judgement is made.

rossum

The only basis is pure ignorance.