Is it righteous to train dogs to attack people?

[Thorwald]

In the laws given unto the Israelites by Moses, even domesticated animals (cows, etc.) harming a person, were frowned upon, and restitution had to be made.

Since man was created above the animal kingdom, is it righteous for anyone to train dogs or use trained dogs, in order to either hunt another human being down or attack them? To add a little more ‘fuel’ to this question, would your response change, if the person was bitten, and later found to be not guilty of any criminal act?

All dogs (as pets) will protect their own territory against intruders. This is natural. All precautions should be taken, however, to ensure that ‘accidental’ attacks against a lawful encounter with human beings, are minimized.

 

[promethius]

Actually, trained attack dogs will “call off” if the handler gives them the instruction… ie, if someone running stops and throws their hands up then the handler can stop the dog, even down to a second before the dog jumps the person. Typically, as well, the dog will only attack as long as the person is resisting, once the person lays still the dog goes into “holding” or even lets go and stays close and on guard.

That’s why handlers like their dogs so much. It’s “a bullet you can stop before it hits”

The point is that it’s very hard for an innocent person to put themselves in a situation where a dog handler releases a dog, doesn’t call of the dog, and then continues to struggle until serious harm is done.

 

[Dale_M]

The point is that it’s very hard for an innocent person to put themselves in a situation where a dog handler releases a dog, doesn’t call of the dog, and then continues to struggle until serious harm is done.

You’re assuming that the dog handler is a moral person.

Perhaps training the dog is ethically neutral, and the morality comes in how the dog (as with any other weapon) is utilized.

 

[bpbasilphx]

You’re assuming that the dog handler is a moral person.

Perhaps training the dog is ethically neutral, and the morality comes in how the dog (as with any other weapon) is utilized.

Good point, Dale.

 

[zosa]

I’m not sure you need anyone to answer the question. It seems the fact you’ve asked it means you have some doubt. Even the way the question is phrased “is it righteous to train dogs to attack people” is an interesting choice of words.

Surely it is not “righteous.” Perhaps it’s “ok” or “permissible” under some circumstances such as police dogs, etc. Other words for righteous are “virtuous” and “honorable.” I dont’ think any of these apply either.

It may be necessary in our fallen world, but can you imagine St. Paul writing to Christians saying "Brothers and Sisters it is righteous to train dogs to attack people.:

In some ways, i think the phrasing of the question also provides its answer

 

[rayne89]

I’m not sure you need anyone to answer the question. It seems the fact you’ve asked it means you have some doubt. Even the way the question is phrased “is it righteous to train dogs to attack people” is an interesting choice of words.

Surely it is not “righteous.” Perhaps it’s “ok” or “permissible” under some circumstances such as police dogs, etc. Other words for righteous are “virtuous” and “honorable.” I dont’ think any of these apply either.

It may be necessary in our fallen world, but can you imagine St. Paul writing to Christians saying "Brothers and Sisters it is righteous to train dogs to attack people.:

In some ways, i think the phrasing of the question also provides its answer

Well if the dog is hunting a child abductor is may very well be righteous.

 

[Thorwald]

I’m not sure you need anyone to answer the question. It seems the fact you’ve asked it means you have some doubt. Even the way the question is phrased “is it righteous to train dogs to attack people” is an interesting choice of words.

Surely it is not “righteous.” Perhaps it’s “ok” or “permissible” under some circumstances such as police dogs, etc. Other words for righteous are “virtuous” and “honorable.” I dont’ think any of these apply either.

It may be necessary in our fallen world, but can you imagine St. Paul writing to Christians saying "Brothers and Sisters it is righteous to train dogs to attack people.:

In some ways, i think the phrasing of the question also provides its answer

Thank you for your answer (and all others that responded to this thread).

I worry a great deal, in how ‘society’ has evolved. The use of dogs and tasers; the corruption in our police forces and judicial systems; the availability of weapons and drugs; the acts of terrorism; and most of all, the declining Christian church membership.

I watched a ‘police chase’ on t.v., where police dogs were used. One of the dogs turned on a police officer, and had to be pulled off of the officer, by another officer. For some reason, I thought of a child, petting his pet dog. Most dogs in public, can be approached (cautiously), and petted. If a trained police dog escapes, can they be safely approached? I really don’t know the answer.

I still think back to the teachings of Moses, concerning domestic animals.

The last thing in this world that I would want to encounter, is to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, facing a trained vicious dog, that wants to tear me apart, and I have no means of protecting myself. Crimes committed by criminals are supposed to be judged in a court. A trained dog will attack any criminal in the same way, no matter what the severity is, of the crime that a criminal commits. We see many cases of police ‘over-kill’, simply because they have been allowed under the law, to use these dramatic means of apprehending who they believe, is a criminal.

I still have problems believing that God approves of the ‘changing’ of a supposed domestic pet (companion) into a vicious wild animal. The ‘before and after’ are in direct conflict with each other.

 

[promethius]

You’re assuming that the dog handler is a moral person.

Perhaps training the dog is ethically neutral, and the morality comes in how the dog (as with any other weapon) is utilized.

Yes, I like that point. The act of training a dog for combat role is not in and of itself either righteous or immoral (if done properly) but rather it is the motivation of employment that makes it so.

 

[promethius]

I worry a great deal, in how ‘society’ has evolved. The use of dogs and tasers; the corruption in our police forces and judicial systems; the availability of weapons and drugs; the acts of terrorism; and most of all, the declining Christian church membership.

I would say the use of dogs or tasers is actually a mercy vice shooting someone.

I watched a ‘police chase’ on t.v., where police dogs were used. One of the dogs turned on a police officer, and had to be pulled off of the officer, by another officer.

An animal behaving on instinct and snapping like that doesn’t really have anything to do with training a working dog. Any dog can snap and attack, and at that point training a dog as a working dog would probably be a GOOD thing, as working dogs are taught to attack peripherals (rather than the throat) and not to go for maximum damage as they do.

For some reason, I thought of a child, petting his pet dog. Most dogs in public, can be approached (cautiously), and petted. If a trained police dog escapes, can they be safely approached? I really don’t know the answer.

That first statement is actually a logical fallacy called “red herring”.

Children shouldn’t ever be allowed contact with a working dog. They are not pets and they aren’t there to be petted or cuddled. Recall: dogs are not “pettable” animals in the wild, it goes against their instinct. We do it because we like to, but it isn’t something a dog necessarily needs or (in the case of working dogs) wants. I’d say a large portion of animal violence comes from the fact that we overzealously view or dogs as pets and friends rather than as the trained animals that they are.

That being said, the only time I saw a working dog escape it took a walk outside and laid down. They’re very used to being with their handler wherever they go and trained as a non-alpha animal (in other words, they’re reluctant to travel without their handler, whom they are trained to view as their “alpha” pack leader).

The last thing in this world that I would want to encounter, is to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, facing a trained vicious dog, that wants to tear me apart, and I have no means of protecting myself. Crimes committed by criminals are supposed to be judged in a court. A trained dog will attack any criminal in the same way, no matter what the severity is, of the crime that a criminal commits.

This is another “red herring”. Trained working dogs are taught to attack non-vital areas in a supressive rather than lethal manner. If anything, a working dog is less “vicious” than a large dog that simply snaps and decides to attack. As to being tried in court, a criminal in a situation that warrants use of a working dog has the choice of stopping or not fighting back. In such a case, the dog will not continue to attack. Working dogs are trained to supress rather than kill.

We see many cases of police ‘over-kill’, simply because they have been allowed under the law, to use these dramatic means of apprehending who they believe, is a criminal.

In this regard I would say working dogs are a far improvement over the use of bullets.

 

[promethius]

I still have problems believing that God approves of the ‘changing’ of a supposed domestic pet (companion) into a vicious wild animal. The ‘before and after’ are in direct conflict with each other.

That is actually completely in reverse. Dogs were wild animals. Their primary original domestication was to create working dogs. It is only a relatively recent invention of man that we “changed” dogs into domestic pets and “companions” and for this reason many people in America end up raising their dogs very poorly with bad mental dispositions. If anything, working dogs are much closer to their natural state than domesticated pets are.

We should point out:

1. certain breeds were created by humans to create specific “pet” or “companion” traits. Often times, however, there were bad side effects in this process, such as dogs whose skull may not grow large enough, causing a significant portion of the breed that end up retarded.
2. All dogs need to be walked every day. Dogs are migratory animals, but most people tend to ignore this fact. If a dog is being destructive, most people think of discipline is the answer, but this leads to bad mental conditioning of the animal. Walking a dog to settle its instincts and tire it out is the best way to keep an animal under control.
3. Many people try to comfort their dogs when the animal is scared or upset. This is inappropriate. Dogs in the wild that are scared or upset go off by themselves and hide from their pack until they feel better. Dogs are confused when comforted in this manner.
4. Dogs “look away” as a means of showing respect. If you try to “make something up” to a dog during this time, it tells the dog, by instinct, that you’re not accepting that the dog sees you as the alpha.
5. Dogs should be made to walk behind people when being walked. The alpha dog always leads, and if a dog is walking in front of you it is a sign that it does not respect you as leader of the house.
6. Eat while you’re putting food in a dog’s bowl. The alpha always eats first, so it confuses a dog when a person pours their food and gives it to them without eating something first.
7. No table scraps should ever be given to a dog, same reason as above, alpha pack leaders do not share food in this manner, only submissive animals do (it destroys the dog’s sense that YOU lead)
8. Dogs should be fed at scheduled times. Only the alpha animal (you) in a pack gets to decide when everyone eats. Self-feeders are bad for dogs.
9. when going from room to room or upstairs, never let a dog run before you. If it does, call it back, tell it to stay, and then go through and tell it to come. Alpha animals always enter rooms first.
10. Ignore a dog for a few minutes whenever you enter the house or room.
11. Never give a dog a treat or play with them without giving them an order (such as “sit”) first.
12. Never put yourself lower in height than the dog. this means no laying on the floor when the dog is around and no rolling around with the dog. Also, no letting the dog sleep in bed with you.
13. If a dog is laying in your way, make it move. Don’t walk around it (this sounds rude, but it’s actually natural pack behavior)

Hugs or pulling on ears of a dog who isn’t properly conditioned in these ways can prove dangerous, as it’s at this point that the dog assumes that it is higher in the pack than the humans, and that such a behavior is a challenge for supremecy. At this point, the dog attacks to assure it’s position.

 

[Thorwald]

TO: PROMETHIUS.

I guess that you have your opinions, and I have mine. I lived next door to a police officer that trained these dogs that I speak of. He had one as a pet. Every time that I went into my yard, in order to cut grass or relax, his dog would try to get at me. There was a 4-foot wooden fence separating our properties. The dog was always in a vicious mood, foaming at the mouth, barking, and flashing its teeth. Several times, I grabbed my shovel, and swung it at the dog, hoping that it would break its chain. I would have gladly killed it. I never saw such a visious dog in my life.

I have encountered black bears many times in the bush, while prospecting. I have picked blueberries, with one eating from the same group of plants opposite from where I was picking berries. I walked into three bears, on one occasion. There was a mother bear and two prior-year cubs. The cubs came up to me, with one running its nose along the back of my hand. I never moved. I came across a very large bear sleeping in the bush while blazing a line. I walked to within 40 feet of the bear, leaned up against a tree, and had a cigarette. The bear opened one eye, looked at me, but never moved. I simply carried on staking.

I have always had dogs or cats, or both, at the same time. Anyone could pet our animals. Dogs will protect their own property, but usually are the most aggressive if they are tied up and never allowed to run free. Dogs (and all pets) need a lot of attention, and need to be walked, or taken out in the bush, and allowed to run free (within reason).

I had a renter, that brought his dog to ‘obedience’ school. The dog was subjected to the same things that you listed (above). To be honest with you, I have never seen such a ‘screwed up’ dog in all my life. I knew the dog both before and after the training. Before the training, it was a very lovable, kind dog. After the training, it seemed to be totally ‘heart-broken’. It appeared to be totally devoid of ‘life’ without any spirit in it any longer. It was like it was ‘half dead’.

I do not think that we need to subject anyone to the possibility of being bitten by a trained police dog. These dogs are evil. All sins are punishable by spiritual death, unless forgiven by God. We do not need to be bitten, in order to help us ‘see the light’. There are other ways to apprehend criminals.

With the amount of deaths on the rise due to the use of tasers, I again disagree with you. A person’s ability to withstand electrical shock, is unknown to anyone else. We are all different. Those that die from the shock, have been point-blankedly ‘executed’.