Is it sinful to indulge in (non-sexual) sinful fantasies?

[Darrel]

johnq:

Hi Darrel, :tiphat:

It appears like we are on common ground. I agree with your quote above, and would have used many of the same examples if I kept going. My main point was we normally start small and work our way up.

Cain is a prime example. In Genesis we know Cain’s sin was the murder of Abel, but do we know what lead to the mortal sin?

Genesis 4:
2 Next she bore his brother Abel. Abel became a keeper of flocks, and Cain a tiller of the soil. 3 In the course of time Cain brought an offering to the LORD from the fruit of the soil, 4 while Abel, for his part, brought one of the best firstlings of his flock. The LORD looked with favor on Abel and his offering, 5 but on Cain and his offering he did not. Cain greatly resented this and was crestfallen. 6 So the LORD said to Cain: “Why are you so resentful and crestfallen? 7 If you do well, you can hold up your head; but if not, sin is a demon lurking at the door: his urge is toward you, yet you can be his master.” 8 Cain said to his brother Abel, “Let us go out in the field.” When they were in the field, Cain attacked his brother Abel and killed him. 9 Then the LORD asked Cain, “Where is your brother Abel?” He answered, “I do not know. Am I my brother’s keeper?” 10 The LORD then said: "What have you done! Listen: your brother’s blood cries out to me from the soil!

Cain’s sin list - pride, anger, resentment, lying, stealing, lack of faith, lack of trust, jealousy, disobedience . . . :banghead:

Once he started sinning, it kept growing until he finally murdered Abel. Even worse was when Cain’s refusal to repent when God gave him the chance, which resulted a harsher punishment.

Keep up the discerning! :yup:

I agree with this statement, “You realy need to be a mess in your mind to violate another human being sexualy.” I would like to add either phyically or spiritually.

God

Thank You,

I understand your context much more clearly now. I agree on the point that lesser sins can develope into much worse sins over time.

-D

 

[Rhubarb]

“thought, word and deed”

 

[JimG]

Fantasies about sinful activities?

Wouldn’t that include all novels, screenplays, television shows, movie and theater productions, comic books, and most of our literature and art? Even the Bobbsey Twins includes sinful activities, because there has to be a villain in every story.

 

[kage_ar]

(good thing I have a collection of rap instrumentals).

Check out Catholic Rap and Hip Hop at www.phatmass.com (bought this compilation CD for my son’s birthday). For some great driving music, how about POD (they appeal to the old headbanger in me…)?

 

[Timidity]

JimG:

Fantasies about sinful activities?

Wouldn’t that include all novels, screenplays, television shows, movie and theater productions, comic books, and most of our literature and art? Even the Bobbsey Twins includes sinful activities, because there has to be a villain in every story.

I’m not sure what a Bobbsey twin is, but in any case…

I don’t view those as fantasies about sinful activities. Those are fantasies about justice. I think more people tend to identify with the protagonist of the story and in most stories the protagonist is the “good guy”.

 

[JimG]

Oh, I guess I dated myself with the Bobbsey Twins. How about the Hardy Boys?

All I meant was that in any work of literature or the creative arts, let’s say a novel, there are bound to be scenes which include actions that are in real life sinful–because human beings are sinful. The question is how the artist handles this material. It can be done in a way which does not arouse the passions of the reader or viewer.

 

[Timidity]

JimG:

Oh, I guess I dated myself with the Bobbsey Twins. How about the Hardy Boys?

I remember them! Parker Stevenson and Shaun “Da Doo Ron Ron” Cassidy!

 

[shadow_fire]

I don’t believe its sinful because its a natural thing that all people do unless there asexual.

 

[Mack_II]

I don’t believe its sinful because its a natural thing that all people do unless there asexual.

The original question on this thread was about non-sexual fantasies such as thoughts of theft, suicide, murder, slander, etc…

This is important to me as you can see. In the earlier thread entitled “Sins of Thought”

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=153255

I posted the following:

So thinking about suicide could be just as bad as doing it unless you confess it, which of course you can’t do if you go through with it. I wonder how many people are afraid to confess thoughts of suicide who thus have invalid confessions because they are holding something back. I wonder how many people even think that thinking about suicide could be a mortal sin and would therefore not even dream of confessing it.

and Dan Grelinger replied:

Where did that come from? I don’t recognize this as Church teaching. Where do I go to study it?

Dan

but I infered from the heading of that thread that all fantasies (dream-like imaginings of actually doing something) of any sin were also sinful, but Dan seemed to indicate that the Church doesn’t teach this.

So if some of you still want to hash over whether lustful (sexual fantasy) thoughts are sinful, the other thread is the place. On this thread, the question is does the admonisment of Jesus apply to other sins such as suicide??

I would add:

1. I believe that there is a difference between hearing about others sinning (as in listening to rap music or reading a murder novel or reading about an actual murder) and fantasizing about sinning (i.e., pretending that you yourself are doing these things in your head either to plot the actual sin or merely for pleasure). They are not the same thing. Actually, there are three questions: a) merely reading or hearing about sin; b) fantasy plotting to actually commit sin; c) fantasy for pleasure with no thoughts of actually doing it.

Which of these three are sins, if any?

1. Could Jesus be paraphrased as saying:
   Matthew 5:28 “But I say to you, that whosoever fantasize about (murder; suicide; theft; slander; name the sin) to think about doing it (or merely to enjoy the thought about doing it) hath already committed (suicide; murder; theft; slander; name the sin) in his heart.”

and if not, why not? and if so, do these fantasies need to be confessed?

 

[Dan_Grelinger]

I first went to the ten commandments. There are ‘sins of thought’ that are specifically mentioned.

“1. …Thou shalt have no gods before me.” Almost all of our prayers originate in the mind, many stay there. Worshiping a false god can very well happen in the mind.

1. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife.
2. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s goods.

So, to worship a false god in your heart, to desire your neighbor’s spouse, and to desire your neighbor’s goods, would clearly seem to be sins of thought.

It is well known that Jesus elaborated on number 9 during his preaching.

Other than these, is there automatic sin when purposefully fantasizing about something else that would be sinful if done?

For example, would it be an automatic sin to plan someone’s murder, just for grins?

From my searching, I would conclude, no. It may be an occasion of sin. An occasion of sin is a situation where there is RISK of sinning. Purposely placing yourself in an occasion of sin without a reasonable benefit is sinful. Determining whether or not purposefully placing yourself into an occasion of sin is sinful, is a classical risk versus benefit analysis.

If your vocation is marriage, it is hard today to get married without spending a significant amount of time around members of the opposite sex to whom you are not married. These are occasions of sin, as those with a marriage vocation have natural desires to copulate with members of the opposite sex. To ‘date’ morally, the risks must be kept as low as possible, and the benefits must be clear. Once you figure out you could not marry a person, continuing to date them would not be right, i.e. would be sin, because the valid benefit is gone, but the significant risk remains.

So, back to my murder question. If you are in charge of security for the President of the United States, you better be thinking like an assasin thinks, you better be trying to plan to murder the President, to see if it can be done, as long as you use the information to prevent it from happening. There the benefit outweighs the risk. The head of security for the President probably has enough information and control that there may be a real temptation to actually commit the crime, if he had inclinations to do so. So there might some small real risk. But there is also real benefit, as long as the exercise’s purpose is to prevent actual murders.

If you have no business planning the murder, what is the risk that you would actually do it? For most of us, it is zero. For this example however, there may be risks of other sins. If this is your fantasy because you have a hatred of the person who is the President of the United States, then I would suggest that this is sinful, as focusing our minds on hating others is placing us irresponsibly in the occasion of sin with no real benefit.

In summary: our thoughts can lead us to sin. If there is no benefit to God and others as a result of these thoughts, we should probably not consciuosly entertain them. Many times not inherently sin, but irresponsible occasions of sin.

Dan

 

[Kevin42]

I don’t know if it is technically sinful, but it’s certainly not good. If we seek Christ, we should in no way take any pleasure in sin. Sure thoughts may float through your mind, but to hold onto them and indulge in the thought of sin…Satan’s deception and evil…is unhealthy and will certainly point you away from Jesus. Therefore doing this is bad, and we should be strict with ourselves and not allow ourselves to do this. (Easier said than done in many cases…I know .)

 

[cynic]

What normal person would get pleasure from such fantasies anyway? A fantasy about murdering someone?

Anyway I thought catholics were against all forms of fantasy and daydreaming (ie thoughts that are indulged in purely for pleasure) whether the actual activity in them is sinful or not. For eg a fantasy about kissing your own wife is still a sin, a fantasy about driving a cool car is still a sin, a fantasy about sunning on the beach is still a sin…

 

[Dan_Grelinger]

Anyway I thought catholics were against all forms of fantasy and daydreaming (ie thoughts that are indulged in purely for pleasure) whether the actual activity in them is sinful or not. For eg a fantasy about kissing your own wife is still a sin, a fantasy about driving a cool car is still a sin, a fantasy about sunning on the beach is still a sin…

Catholics, or the Catholic Church?

There may be some Catholics against all forms of fantasy and daydreaming. I went to Catholic school during all my primary years, and I guess some of my teachers may have been trying to leave that impression on us kids. Fantasizing or day dreaming about anything in class generally had its consequences. But I suspect some public school teachers would leave the same impression on their students.

There is no Church teaching I have ever seen that even hints that fantasizing or daydreaming about non-sinful actions is a sin. That would seem to be just another ridiculous thing that some non-Catholics believe about Catholics.

Sincerely,

Dan