M
Maxirad
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…celebrate the fact that the damned are suffering in Hell? Check out this piece by Tim Staples.
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J
JurisPrudens
Guest
As I remember, yes, this was a traditional teaching of medieval theology.…celebrate the fact that the damned are suffering in Hell? Check out this piece by Tim Staples.
At first, I also felt unease with this idea. But then someone at this forum pointed out that the damned are not the people we know and love on this Earth. Their sin have transformed their personality irreversibly, by their own guilt. The damned are evil people, who hate Christ and those who love Him. People rejoiced at the defeat of Nazi, and that was justified. It is even more logical here.
Anyway, personally I believe that the Blessed rejoice not only at the suffering of the damned, but also at the communion with God and among themselves.
Yes, but not in the crude manner this wording implies. Heaven isn’t a bunch of people with a massive case of schadenfreude and I-told-you-so’s. Rather, the rejoicing is in God’s justice (people seem to forget nowadays that God is just, not only merciful), and God’s justice, like anything of the divine, is God’s essence, so it is just another “form” of rejoicing in the Lord.…celebrate the fact that the damned are suffering in Hell? Check out this piece by Tim Staples.
H
hu324b
Guest
From the article:
Huh?
Perhaps an analogy would work best in explaining this: Imagine you are in a court room and a man whom you know is guilty of murder is standing before the Judge and jurors where his fate is about to be determined. The foreman of the jury stands up and says, “Your honor, we find Tom Smith (insert your own name here) "not guilty” of all charges.
Your immediate reaction would most likely be to say, “That’s unjust!” At least, it should be. This would be an injustice because this man was, in fact, guilty! You should feel outraged at an injustice like this. Yet, on the flip side, if that same juror were to say, “We find Tom Smith guilty,” there would be a sense in which you could rejoice in this that is just. We should not rejoice in the suffering that awaits this man. We should not allow ourselves to fall into a sense of vengeance for vengeance’s sake, but we can, and indeed we should, rejoice in the good that is justice. You could say in a joyful way, “Justice was served today! And that is a good thing!”
On Judgment Day, all will know that every person will have been judged rightly and we will be able to see this with “God’s eyes,” so to speak. The blessed will be able to rejoice in God’s justice and mercy. In fact, only heaven will reveal in full the reality that that Justice and Mercy are actually absolutely one in our infinitely just and infinitely merciful God!
It appears to be about Justice being served rightly than about the Dammed.
- How could it be possible that the just in heaven will be able to rejoice for all eternity in God, when they know that loved ones, for example, are in Hell for all eternity?
Huh?
Perhaps an analogy would work best in explaining this: Imagine you are in a court room and a man whom you know is guilty of murder is standing before the Judge and jurors where his fate is about to be determined. The foreman of the jury stands up and says, “Your honor, we find Tom Smith (insert your own name here) "not guilty” of all charges.
Your immediate reaction would most likely be to say, “That’s unjust!” At least, it should be. This would be an injustice because this man was, in fact, guilty! You should feel outraged at an injustice like this. Yet, on the flip side, if that same juror were to say, “We find Tom Smith guilty,” there would be a sense in which you could rejoice in this that is just. We should not rejoice in the suffering that awaits this man. We should not allow ourselves to fall into a sense of vengeance for vengeance’s sake, but we can, and indeed we should, rejoice in the good that is justice. You could say in a joyful way, “Justice was served today! And that is a good thing!”
On Judgment Day, all will know that every person will have been judged rightly and we will be able to see this with “God’s eyes,” so to speak. The blessed will be able to rejoice in God’s justice and mercy. In fact, only heaven will reveal in full the reality that that Justice and Mercy are actually absolutely one in our infinitely just and infinitely merciful God!
It appears to be about Justice being served rightly than about the Dammed.
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
I never saw the word “celebrate”. I saw the word “rejoice”. Those are two separate things, and the analogy Mr Staples uses conveys that clearly.
If there were a man being judged who was clearly guilty, and the jury found him guilty, there is a sense of rejoicing, NOT that the man is going to suffer, but that justice has clearly been served. To turn it around, imagine that the clearly guilty man was found innocent. People would not rejoice that he was not going to suffer the penalty; they would be angry that he had escaped justice.
To make it really, really clear to most people on these forums, imagine the man was a pedophile. Then imagine him being clearly guilty but found innocent and allowed to walk free and probably molest again. Would you rejoice? I think not.
We are human beings. We are limited. We see only the imperfect world before us, and the imperfect, though often beautiful, relationships. When we are dead, we will see with God’s eyes (whether we chose salvation or not). . .we will see all, and clearly.
In “The Great Divorce” C.S. Lewis addresses this when he speaks of a man and woman, who had been married. The woman died first, the man after. Though the man loved her, he was angry and jealous that she loved other people too (not in a sexual way, but simply the kind of Christ-like love we should all show each other). He wanted to be not just ‘first’ in love after God, but ‘only’ in love. And he died and was in hell, and he was furious that he had no power to make her suffer because he was in hell, and she was not.
The two observers of their meeting speak of this. The one ‘ordinary human’ thinks it is not really fair that she should NOT be sad over the fate of her husband. But the ‘guide’ tells him that if sorrow could reach into heaven like that, then Evil would be the winner. That evil has no right to make not just itself miserable, but to make others as miserable over its fate as well.
I find that whole section, while a bit ‘scary’, to be illuminating. And when I contemplate the possibilities of being separated from loved ones, it does help a bit to think that one will not be 'unhappy in heaven". . while also being a salutary reminder that one will also not be able to gloat from Hell that “at least THEY are suffering because they’re without me!”
If there were a man being judged who was clearly guilty, and the jury found him guilty, there is a sense of rejoicing, NOT that the man is going to suffer, but that justice has clearly been served. To turn it around, imagine that the clearly guilty man was found innocent. People would not rejoice that he was not going to suffer the penalty; they would be angry that he had escaped justice.
To make it really, really clear to most people on these forums, imagine the man was a pedophile. Then imagine him being clearly guilty but found innocent and allowed to walk free and probably molest again. Would you rejoice? I think not.
We are human beings. We are limited. We see only the imperfect world before us, and the imperfect, though often beautiful, relationships. When we are dead, we will see with God’s eyes (whether we chose salvation or not). . .we will see all, and clearly.
In “The Great Divorce” C.S. Lewis addresses this when he speaks of a man and woman, who had been married. The woman died first, the man after. Though the man loved her, he was angry and jealous that she loved other people too (not in a sexual way, but simply the kind of Christ-like love we should all show each other). He wanted to be not just ‘first’ in love after God, but ‘only’ in love. And he died and was in hell, and he was furious that he had no power to make her suffer because he was in hell, and she was not.
The two observers of their meeting speak of this. The one ‘ordinary human’ thinks it is not really fair that she should NOT be sad over the fate of her husband. But the ‘guide’ tells him that if sorrow could reach into heaven like that, then Evil would be the winner. That evil has no right to make not just itself miserable, but to make others as miserable over its fate as well.
I find that whole section, while a bit ‘scary’, to be illuminating. And when I contemplate the possibilities of being separated from loved ones, it does help a bit to think that one will not be 'unhappy in heaven". . while also being a salutary reminder that one will also not be able to gloat from Hell that “at least THEY are suffering because they’re without me!”
U
Usige
Guest
That was always my understanding; that they rejoice in the triump of God’s justice. I’ve always understood it as less about the individuals that are damned rather than in the proper application of justice.Yes, but not in the crude manner this wording implies. Heaven isn’t a bunch of people with a massive case of schadenfreude and I-told-you-so’s. Rather, the rejoicing is in God’s justice (people seem to forget nowadays that God is just, not only merciful), and God’s justice, like anything of the divine, is God’s essence, so it is just another “form” of rejoicing in the Lord.
F
fisherman_carl
Guest
The article doesn’t actually say that anyone is celebrating that the damned are suffering in hell. It tries to answer the question how can people be happy in heaven if a loved one is in hell. It doesn’t assert that people are happy that a loved one is in hell. People in heaven are happy because they are in the presence of God. Love, joy, peace. People in hell are there because they chose to be there. God doesn’t want anyone to go there. And he certainly doesn’t rejoice at anyone’s choice to go there.…celebrate the fact that the damned are suffering in Hell? Check out this piece by Tim Staples.
I don’t think that anyone has satisfactorily answered the question that Tim Staples tries to answer. But, I don’t think that the question could be satisfactorily answered. It is something that will remain a mystery until the judgement. Indeed, I think there will be rejoicing when the devil and his minions are cast into hell. No longer can they hurt anyone else. As Scripture says,
“They shall not hurt or destroy
in all my holy mountain;
for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord
as the waters cover the sea.”
No one will be crying for the devil who is completely evil and has corrupted many. Hell was not created for man, but for the fallen angels.
No one feels bad when something completely evil and without redeeming qualities is punished. One that is good cannot love what is evil. It is only if something that still has something good or redeeming qualities, that may have some good in it, that we may question rejoicing at its demise. And that is the question that some have tried to answer by saying that anyone who goes to hell has no redeeming qualities left in them. I am not sure if that is a satisfactory answer. I think we won’t fully know until the day it happens. But, one thing we do know is that God is just and merciful. So we can trust he will not send anyone to hell who has hope of salvation. But, God cannot force someone to go to heaven against their will. And, ultimately if God respects their free will then so must we.
F
fisherman_carl
Guest
Good point. I think the devil would certainly gloat if he could make the people in heaven suffer over the people in hell.I never saw the word “celebrate”. I saw the word “rejoice”. Those are two separate things, and the analogy Mr Staples uses conveys that clearly.
If there were a man being judged who was clearly guilty, and the jury found him guilty, there is a sense of rejoicing, NOT that the man is going to suffer, but that justice has clearly been served. To turn it around, imagine that the clearly guilty man was found innocent. People would not rejoice that he was not going to suffer the penalty; they would be angry that he had escaped justice.
To make it really, really clear to most people on these forums, imagine the man was a pedophile. Then imagine him being clearly guilty but found innocent and allowed to walk free and probably molest again. Would you rejoice? I think not.
We are human beings. We are limited. We see only the imperfect world before us, and the imperfect, though often beautiful, relationships. When we are dead, we will see with God’s eyes (whether we chose salvation or not). . .we will see all, and clearly.
In “The Great Divorce” C.S. Lewis addresses this when he speaks of a man and woman, who had been married. The woman died first, the man after. Though the man loved her, he was angry and jealous that she loved other people too (not in a sexual way, but simply the kind of Christ-like love we should all show each other). He wanted to be not just ‘first’ in love after God, but ‘only’ in love. And he died and was in hell, and he was furious that he had no power to make her suffer because he was in hell, and she was not.
The two observers of their meeting speak of this. The one ‘ordinary human’ thinks it is not really fair that she should NOT be sad over the fate of her husband. But the ‘guide’ tells him that if sorrow could reach into heaven like that, then Evil would be the winner. That evil has no right to make not just itself miserable, but to make others as miserable over its fate as well.
I find that whole section, while a bit ‘scary’, to be illuminating. And when I contemplate the possibilities of being separated from loved ones, it does help a bit to think that one will not be 'unhappy in heaven". . while also being a salutary reminder that one will also not be able to gloat from Hell that “at least THEY are suffering because they’re without me!”
At some point people must make their eternal choice and never look back.
M
mikekle
Guest
Wasnt there some other verses that imply the dead do not think of their past earthly lives or not remember it?
It seems logical to us right now that if we died and any of our loved ones were not with us in heaven, that would be traumatic to us, since we would know they are suffering in hell, but I have a feeling it probably is not like this.
It seems logical to us right now that if we died and any of our loved ones were not with us in heaven, that would be traumatic to us, since we would know they are suffering in hell, but I have a feeling it probably is not like this.
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