Is Jesus Sacrifice not enough?

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Mikenerin said:
So in Romans 7 St. Paul claims he still sins but the thief on the cross was with Christ “today” in paradise. And using the day to the lord is like a thousand years argument would be using it out of context. That being said do you believe St. Paul still being imperfect would have to go to purgatory. Or is Christ really enough to bring them and all who trust in him directly to his presence. Absent from the body and press from the lord. This doctrine is very troubling and seems to contradict the original statements on Christ sufficiency
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We still have to do our part. Our justice is connected to our wills. To the extent that we will rightly our justice is greater. I don’t know that we ever totally achieve this until we’re in the immediate presence of God, where the will is absolutely overwhelmed and attracted by His sheer beauty and goodness, where all desire is fulfilled. But we’re expected to begin that journey now, of recognizing and choosing the true good, of not allowing vain and selfish interests to compromise that path. Grace, and our cooperation with it, is the answer. Sometimes we need chastisement along the way. So we’re expected to do the best we can with what we’re given-the Parable of the Talents describes this principle well, along with Luke 12:48. At some state we’re capable of “seeing” God. “Blessed are the pure in heart, they shall see God.” Did the thief on the cross attain that level of innocence right there, in the presence of Christ? Was his contrition perfect? It’s possible. In which case he did the best he could with what he was given.

In any case purgatory is a place of mercy-simply because sinners are not yet capable of seeing God-and experiencing the beatitude that goes with that. Otherwise justice, itself, would demand that they be excluded from the kingdom of God. He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life.

** "Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”** Rev 21

God’s forgiveness does not come without an obligation on man’s part, to become pure, to be holy, to persevere, to genuinely respond to His offer, His grace, to turn fully back to Him.
 
Nicely written post. And I will take it that the penalty for my sin was paid fully by Christ st the cross. But because in my flesh I am not holy I will experience punishment and beating by the mercy of God to purge my sinfulness until it’s gone. Thus I may enter heaven and be with Jesus? That doesn’t make the gospel sound very freeing. So there is condemnation it part for those in Christ. Men that stinks, I better stop thinking bad thoughts or feeling jealous or Being pridefully. It’s so conflicting
 
Righteousness could be gained through the law Christ died for nothing.
 
Mikenerin said:
Nicely written post. And I will take it that the penalty for my sin was paid fully by Christ st the cross. But because in my flesh I am not holy I will experience punishment and beating by the mercy of God to purge my sinfulness until it’s gone. Thus I may enter heaven and be with Jesus? That doesn’t make the gospel sound very freeing. So there is condemnation it part for those in Christ. Men that stinks, I better stop thinking bad thoughts or feeling jealous or Being pridefully. It’s so conflicting
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Freedom comes from sinlessness-sin is slavery. God doesn’t want to leave us there. The reason man was banished from Eden and the tree of life is because of sin-which automatically leads to misery and exclusion from God and the beatitude that comes with knowing Him; sin leads to death. God wants more from us-and for us-to be who He created us to be-not just “snow covered dung-heaps” as Luther put it. He knows we’re capable of more than that-He created us after all, and certainly did *not *create us to sin. So all of His efforts are for the purpose of restoring man to the heights from which he fell-and probably higher yet-but that’s another story.

Either way the NT is filled with warnings and admonishments for believers to remain faithful, invest their talents, be unashamed of the gospel, be vigilant, persevere, be holy, be perfect, refrain from sin, feed the poor, clothe the naked, remain in Christ, be good soil, etc, etc, generally with the loss of the kingdom at stake.
 
Mikenerin said:
Bookcat, I agree with you that Christ suffering and sacrifice was and is abundantly more than we need to be justified. I also understand that we are to pick up our cross present our bodies as holy snd living sacrifices and all the commands to live holy lives in reverent fear of the Lord who gave himself up freely for our salvation. But the question of purgatory which is very much on topic needs to be addressed. If the Catholic doctrine says Jesus is enough, and it sounds like your professors agree it’s enough. Then why pugatory.
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And as for purgatory - it is the work of JESUS CHRIST - not ours.

It is his final work on us. God is a refining fire - purifying us. He makes us perfect prior to our entering into heaven and then later our Resurrection.

As the book of Revelation notes -nothing unclean can enter heaven…so Jesus does that final purification and transformation of our soul (just think today of the even the little ways that you sin each day…and all those even little disordered loves…Jesus purifies us of that and more…)

Tis the completion of his application of the redemption of us on the cross …etc to our souls.

But again…

Another thread please…not this one. It is off topic.

We are to keep threads on topic…

Start a new thread.
 
Mikenerin said:
It seems like there are many different ideas on what Roman Catholics believe. One will say I count on works alone, another on Christ plus works and another on Christ alone. I’m speaking of justification and glorification. I talk to many Roman Catholic and they seem to settle the issue with the answer of purgatory. And I don’t see the idea in the bible accept maybe the suffering we have in this life. I see heaven and hell and Christ paying for my sins past present and future and good works a reflection of living this life for Him because 1 He wants us to and 2 I want to because of what He did for me. Thoughts?
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Hi, Mike!
…Church never Taught Salvation through works, never mind works alone, nor Christ alone. Christ never Taught Salvation through works, works alone or “Christ alone.”

Christ Taught Salvation in Christ, and for Christ, and through Christ.

…yeah, there are things puzzling about Scriptures and Doctrine… however, here are two passages that might shed some light on Purgatory:
22 And I saw no temple therein. For the Lord God Almighty is the temple thereof, and the Lamb. 23 And the city hath no need of the sun, nor of the moon, to shine in it. For the glory of God hath enlightened it, and the Lamb is the lamp thereof. 24 And the nations shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth shall bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates thereof shall not be shut by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27 There shall not enter into it any thing defiled, or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie, but they that are written in the book of life of the Lamb. (Apocalypse 21:22-27)
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11 For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: 13 Every man’s work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If any man’s work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire. 16 Know you not, that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 But if any man violate the temple of God, him shall God destroy. For the temple of God is holy, which you are. (1 Corinthians 3:11-17)
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Since nothing impure can enter God’s Presence and since man does not always offer God the best (beginning with Cain) there will be a process of purification–how long and where will that purification take place is not clearly Revealed. Yet, since the Church is the deposit of Truth and since the Holy Spirit would Reveal all things (expanding on Christ’s own Revelations) it is not beyond Christ’s implied Design.

Maran atha!

Angel

PS: I’ve just googled Purgatory:
The idea of purgatory has roots that date back, before Jesus, to the worldwide practice of praying for and caring for the dead, and the practice of prayer for the dead with a view to their afterlife purification found in Judaism,[1] from which Christianity grew. (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Purgatory)
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Thanks for your thoughts. I’m sticking with what has been revealed. Absent from the body and present with the lord. Jesus paid my sim debt in full he has cast our sin as far as the east is from the west. Christ died to set us free from the law of sin and death. We all all sin and fall short of his glory yet the lambs book of life is full of sinners who put their trust in Christ redemption alone. That’s is the exemption in your revelation verse
 
Mikenerin said:
So in Romans 7 St. Paul claims he still sins but the thief on the cross was with Christ “today” in paradise. And using the day to the lord is like a thousand years argument would be using it out of context. That being said do you believe St. Paul still being imperfect would have to go to purgatory. Or is Christ really enough to bring them and all who trust in him directly to his presence. Absent from the body and press from the lord. This doctrine is very troubling and seems to contradict the original statements on Christ sufficiency
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Hi, Mike!
…would you believe that you are “this close?”

The criminal on the cross not only did a turnaround (repent from his ways, turn back to God, Confess himself unrighteous, acclaimed Jesus Just and Lord, asked to be Reconciled to God… but he Evangelized the other criminal (and those in earshot) about God’s Power and Mercy; do you truly believe that he was simply going through the motion or that he was scheming to get off the cross and continue in his unrighteous lifestyle?

There was conviction and change of heart and the desire to Walk with God.

St. Paul warns several times that even Believers may lose their way!

Was St. Paul a habitual sinner? We don’t really know. What we do know, from Scriptures, is that he did not ***presume to know ***that he was already Saved and that he would never lose his Salvation!

As with the criminal on the cross, Jesus still has the determining Word on Salvation (who and when).

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Mikenerin said:
Thanks for your thoughts. I’m sticking with what has been revealed. Absent from the body and present with the lord. Jesus paid my sim debt in full he has cast our sin as far as the east is from the west. Christ died to set us free from the law of sin and death. We all all sin and fall short of his glory yet the lambs book of life is full of sinners who put their trust in Christ redemption alone. That’s is the exemption in your revelation verse
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Your misquoting that verse about being absent from the body - watch please Jimmyt Akin of Catholic Anwers: jimmyakin.com/2012/06/to-be-absent-from-the-body-is-to-be-present-with-the-lord.html

It is again (see above) JESUS CHRIST - is who is at work in that final purification - not mine.

It is HIS **application **in a final way of the redemption of the cross - to our souls. It is his application…

Be glad to discuss with you more but there needs to be a new thread started.

See Forum Rules:forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=2

Quote:

DISCUSSION FORUMS
Messages posted to threads should be on-topic. If you wish to discuss another topic, start a new thread.
 
Mikenerin said:
Nicely written post. And I will take it that the penalty for my sin was paid fully by Christ st the cross. But because in my flesh I am not holy I will experience punishment and beating by the mercy of God to purge my sinfulness until it’s gone. Thus I may enter heaven and be with Jesus? That doesn’t make the gospel sound very freeing. So there is condemnation it part for those in Christ. Men that stinks, I better stop thinking bad thoughts or feeling jealous or Being pridefully. It’s so conflicting
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Hi, Mike!
…here’s how Jesus put it:
27 You have heard that it was said to them of old: Thou shalt not commit adultery. 28 But I say to you, that whosoever shall look on a woman to lust after her, hath already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 And if thy right eye scandalize thee, pluck it out and cast it from thee. For it is expedient for thee that one of thy members should perish, rather than that thy whole body be cast into hell. 30 And if thy right hand scandalize thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is expedient for thee that one of thy members should perish, rather than that thy whole body be cast into hell. (St. Matthew 5:27-30)
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Interestingly enough, everything that God demands of us we are fully capable of achieving (just check out the sacrifices and convictions of athletes and others) and it is good for us and for others; the mayor problem man has is submitting his will to God’s Will–man rather subscribe to hollowood’s spirituality where “believe in God” changed to “believe in yourself or “x” or “y” or “x and y,” but never in Christ.”

Man wants to answer only to self–or more to the point: whatever suits his fancy (which of course includes not being held responsible for immoral, destructive, and oppressive behavior).

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Mikenerin said:
Thanks for your thoughts. I’m sticking with what has been revealed. Absent from the body and present with the lord. Jesus paid my sim debt in full he has cast our sin as far as the east is from the west. Christ died to set us free from the law of sin and death. We all all sin and fall short of his glory yet the lambs book of life is full of sinners who put their trust in Christ redemption alone. That’s is the exemption in your revelation verse
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Such would be a kind of common misquoting of that verse about being absent from the body -

watch please Jimmy Akin of Catholic Anwers: jimmyakin.com/2012/06/to-be-absent-from-the-body-is-to-be-present-with-the-lord.html (Tis also about Purgatory.)

It is again (see above) JESUS CHRIST - is who is at work in that final purification - not me.

It is HIS **application **in a final way of the redemption of the cross - to our souls. It is his application…
 
Mikenerin said:
Thanks for your thoughts. I’m sticking with what has been revealed. Absent from the body and present with the lord. Jesus paid my sim debt in full he has cast our sin as far as the east is from the west. Christ died to set us free from the law of sin and death. We all all sin and fall short of his glory yet the lambs book of life is full of sinners who put their trust in Christ redemption alone. That’s is the exemption in your revelation verse
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Hi, Mike!
…so you are saying that Jesus’ Book of Life is full of sinners?

How is that possible?

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Mikenerin said:
Bookcat, I agree with you that Christ suffering and sacrifice was and is abundantly more than we need to be justified. I also understand that we are to pick up our cross present our bodies as holy snd living sacrifices and all the commands to live holy lives in reverent fear of the Lord who gave himself up freely for our salvation. But the question of purgatory which is very much on topic needs to be addressed. If the Catholic doctrine says Jesus is enough, and it sounds like your professors agree it’s enough. Then why pugatory.
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Why Purgatory?

The answer lies here…catholiceducation.org/en/religion-and-philosophy/apologetics/purgatory-holy-fire.html

Purgatory: Holy Fire
SCOTT HAHN

Exceprts:

This is why purgatory is so hard for us to understand. We don’t want to carry the cross. We want to make an optional clause in our contract with Christ. “If you want to be my disciple, you’ve got to carry the cross. You’ve got to die to self.”

Let’s turn to Romans 8 and see this doctrine taught further. Romans 8 is one of my favorite all-time passages and has been for years and years as a Protestant as well as a Catholic, but I must say I’ve slightly adjusted my understanding in the last few years. I always thought that Romans 8, which many considered to be I mean Romans is in a sense the central gem in a cluster of Pauline precious stones. Romans 8 is the central facet that glistens and gleams. It’s beautiful. It’s a promise that we will persevere through the Holy Spirit.

Now what does this mean, that Christ has not paid for our sin? Of course not. It doesn’t mean that. Christ has paid once and for all for our sin. His death is the ultimate satisfaction and price for our redemption, but His life and His death must be lived out in us. That’s why we need to pick up our cross, and we need to imitate Christ. Did you catch that? We don’t suffer because Christ’s sufferings weren’t enough. We suffer because Christ’s life must be reproduced in us. It is finished. It is accomplished, but now it must be applied. The work of the third person of the Holy Spirit is New Testament history, is personal history.
 
Can somebody start a new thread called pugatory and the sufficiency of Christ
 
Well fellas I’ve read and watched all of your recommended information, it was very interesting. I agree with much of it. I believe some of the reference in the holy fire article where a bit of a stretch and the guy with the absent from the body video was correct that I didn’t quote the verse correctly, but his interpretation was way off base. We have this body on earth and or soul goes to be with the lord till we receive or resurrected body. I’d like to say that suffering has brought me closer to Christ and has made me trust in him daily for provision and strength and conviction thru the Holy Spirit. I have a relationship with my savior Jesus, I can not wait to see him. For to live is Christ and to die is gain. I’ll continue to work out my salvation with fear and trembling by the power of the promised deposit of the Holy Spirit. in the vine
 
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