Is lying a mortal sin?

[dumspirospero]

Is it a mortal sin to lie? I know if all the 3 conditions are present, then yes…it is a mortal sin…but what about white lies or telling stories and injecting some falsehoods into it to make friends laugh or to make the story more funny…and you do it without pre-meditation and without malice…your only inclination is to make people laugh. Is that a mortal sin?

 

[jimmy]

dumspirospero:

Is it a mortal sin to lie? I know if all the 3 conditions are present, then yes…it is a mortal sin…but what about white lies or telling stories and injecting some falsehoods into it to make friends laugh or to make the story more funny…and you do it without pre-meditation and without malice…your only inclination is to make people laugh. Is that a mortal sin?

I would not say that is a mortal sin. If it is done with no pre meditation or malice then it would only be venial.

It probably depends on your thought processes at the time also. For example if you think beforehand, “Its a lie and its going against God”, but then go do it anyway it may be a mortal sin because you are deliberately going against God. But if it is part of the speach and you do not have an attack of the conscience then I would say no, it is not a mortal sin.

This is what I think though.

 

[dumspirospero]

That is what I think too…I know I have been guilty of this a time or two and the guilt always sets in after the fact…not while I am telling the story…I think to some degree we are all guilty of this, because we are eager to make our friends laugh…you know?

jimmy:

I would not say that is a mortal sin. If it is done with no pre meditation or malice then it would only be venial.

It probably depends on your thought processes at the time also. For example if you think beforehand, “Its a lie and its going against God”, but then go do it anyway it may be a mortal sin because you are deliberately going against God. But if it is part of the speach and you do not have an attack of the conscience then I would say no, it is not a mortal sin.

This is what I think though.

 

[jimmy]

dumspirospero:

That is what I think too…I know I have been guilty of this a time or two and the guilt always sets in after the fact…not while I am telling the story…I think to some degree we are all guilty of this, because we are eager to make our friends laugh…you know?

Yeh, I would have to say we are all guilty of it. We are very concerned about the way we appear to others.

 

[dumspirospero]

I know…it is very sad too…I for one am trying very hard to stop this myself. I want people to love/like me for who I am…not what I can tell them to make them laugh…please pray for me, so that I will receive the grace necessary to stop this troubling habit.

jimmy:

Yeh, I would have to say we are all guilty of it. We are very concerned about the way we appear to others.

 

[jimmy]

dumspirospero:

I know…it is very sad too…I for one am trying very hard to stop this myself. I want people to love/like me for who I am…not what I can tell them to make them laugh…please pray for me, so that I will receive the grace necessary to stop this troubling habit.

I have the same habit and I am trying to break it too. It is tough to do though. I will pray for you.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Lying is not necessarily a sin.

Lies and obfuscation can protect people from harm at times.

Deceiving for the purpose of causing hurt to someone would fall under the category of “bearing false witness.”

Some people get all scrupulous over stupid stuff like whether they are obligated to disclose whether their boss is physically out of the office or just not taking calls. Funny the question only comes up from employees who resent their bosses for one reason or other.

Alan

 

[jimmy]

AlanFromWichita:

Lying is not necessarily a sin.

Lies and obfuscation can protect people from harm at times.

Deceiving for the purpose of causing hurt to someone would fall under the category of “bearing false witness.”

Some people get all scrupulous over stupid stuff like whether they are obligated to disclose whether their boss is physically out of the office or just not taking calls. Funny the question only comes up from employees who resent their bosses for one reason or other.

Alan

Jesus considered all deception a sin. That includes all lies.

 

[jimmy]

jimmy:

Jesus considered all deception a sin. That includes all lies.

Remember that the bible also says that liers will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

jimmy:

Jesus considered all deception a sin. That includes all lies.

Dear jimmy,

Would that include the deception in Joshua 2, where Rahab hid the spies from those trying to find them?

Let’s see what the NT thinks of Rahab:
Hebrews 11:31:

By faith Rahab the harlot did not perish with the disobedient, for she had received the spies in peace.

James 2:24-25:

See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?

According to your theory, since Rahab practiced deception, what she did was sinful.

According to both the Old and New Testament, Rahab’s deception was righteous.

What you call sin, the Bible calls righteous and faithful.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

jimmy:

Remember that the bible also says that liers will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.

Really? Where?

 

[jimmy]

AlanFromWichita:

Really? Where?

I feel like a protestant with this post.

Apocalypse 21

27 There shall not enter into it any thing defiled, or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie, but they that are written in the book of life of the Lamb.

1 Corinthians 6

10 Nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God.

1 John 1

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth.

Apocalypse 22

15 Without are dogs, and sorcerers, and unchaste, and murderers, and servers of idols, and every one that loveth and maketh a lie.

 

[jimmy]

AlanFromWichita:

Dear jimmy,

Would that include the deception in Joshua 2, where Rahab hid the spies from those trying to find them?

Let’s see what the NT thinks of Rahab:

According to your theory, since Rahab practiced deception, what she did was sinful.

According to both the Old and New Testament, Rahab’s deception was righteous.

What you call sin, the Bible calls righteous and faithful.

Alan

And David was an adulterer, Abraham was an adulterer, but that does not change that adultery is bad. My theory is that of the Church, that all deception and everything that is not truth is not good. Now, I can see if you are protecting someone from death or some other misfortion, but all lies are sinfull and no lie is good.

Mark 7

22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

jimmy:

I feel like a protestant with this post.

LOL – thanks for the quotes.

Apocalypse 21

27 There shall not enter into it any thing defiled, or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie, but they that are written in the book of life of the Lamb.

OK, so that might sound like it makes your point. That brings us back to Rahab – how could she be justified and faithful when she lied to the messengers?

1 Corinthians 6

10 Nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God.

In this context, it seems “liers” does not refer to telling lies, but homosexuality. Let’s look at the NAB translation: “Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.”

This passage then, does not count.

1 John 1

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth.

Clearly this passage, taken in or out of context, is talking about specific lies and not lies in general. Further, it says nothing about liars not entering the kingdom of heaven.

Apocalypse 22

15 Without are dogs, and sorcerers, and unchaste, and murderers, and servers of idols, and every one that loveth and maketh a lie.

Or, in the NAB version: " Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the unchaste, the murderers, the idol-worshipers, and all who love and practice deceit. "

Logically, someone who loves and practices deceit does both. To practice deceit because one loves to do so is quite a different thing from practicing deceit when the truth would get somebody hurt of killed.

All we have left are two references from Revelation, a book I don’t claim to understand.

No matter what, if we conclude that all lies and deceit are sinful, then we must conclude that what Rahab did was sinful when in fact the Bible calls it faithful and righteous. Therefore, if all lies and deception are sinful then the Bible must contradict itself.

If you don’t believe the Bible contradicts itself, then you cannot take the position that all lying is sinful and wrong.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

jimmy:

And David was an adulterer, Abraham was an adulterer, but that does not change that adultery is bad. My theory is that of the Church, that all deception and everything that is not truth is not good. Now, I can see if you are protecting someone from death or some other misfortion, but all lies are sinfull and no lie is good.

Ah, but were David and Abraham called righteous and faithful because of their adultery or in spite of it?

Rahab’s specific act of righteousness involved deceiving the messengers. She was praised for that specific act.

Alan

 

[jimmy]

AlanFromWichita:

LOL – thanks for the quotes.

OK, so that might sound like it makes your point. That brings us back to Rahab – how could she be justified and faithful when she lied to the messengers?

In this context, it seems “liers” does not refer to telling lies, but homosexuality. Let’s look at the NAB translation: “Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.”

This passage then, does not count.

Clearly this passage, taken in or out of context, is talking about specific lies and not lies in general. Further, it says nothing about liars not entering the kingdom of heaven.

Or, in the NAB version: " Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the unchaste, the murderers, the idol-worshipers, and all who love and practice deceit. "

Logically, someone who loves and practices deceit does both. To practice deceit because one loves to do so is quite a different thing from practicing deceit when the truth would get somebody hurt of killed.

All we have left are two references from Revelation, a book I don’t claim to understand.

No matter what, if we conclude that all lies and deceit are sinful, then we must conclude that what Rahab did was sinful when in fact the Bible calls it faithful and righteous. Therefore, if all lies and deception are sinful then the Bible must contradict itself.

If you don’t believe the Bible contradicts itself, then you cannot take the position that all lying is sinful and wrong.

Alan

I can’t say I know the OT very well. Sadly, I am currently reading through the OT for the first time. I can’t claim to know the story of Rahab, yet. I know the NT a little better though.

I can accept what you say about the verse from Corinthians. Maybe that does not mean exactly what I thought.

The verse from John is meant to show that Truth and lieing are opposed.

However, both quotes from Revelation I think are very much relevant.

 

[jimmy]

AlanFromWichita:

Ah, but were David and Abraham called righteous and faithful because of their adultery or in spite of it?

Rahab’s specific act of righteousness involved deceiving the messengers. She was praised for that specific act.

Alan

This I can not defend, I can see that she lied, but it also says that liers shall not inherit the kingdom. Maybe it was an act of defending the men of God that justified her. I do not know.

 

[jimmy]

AlanFromWichita:

Ah, but were David and Abraham called righteous and faithful because of their adultery or in spite of it?

Rahab’s specific act of righteousness involved deceiving the messengers. She was praised for that specific act.

Alan

Interesting, I would have to say they are righteous in spite of there faith. With Rahab I can only agree that it is do to her deciet.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

jimmy:

This I can not defend, I can see that she lied, but it also says that liers shall not inherit the kingdom. Maybe it was an act of defending the men of God that justified her. I do not know.

I completely respect your position on this. Like you, I know less about the OT than the NT.

The Catechism doesn’t exactly clarify the issue either, from what I read. In a couple places it defines lying as telling a falsehood in order to lead someone else into error. Other places it doesn’t specifically make that distinction. There is a lot of good guidance, but it even seems to hedge a bit.

After stewing over it for many years, I finally got over the fact that not everybody is entitled to the whole truth at any given time. For example, sometimes when sales people call and ask for me (especially when they mispronounce my name) I say “he isn’t here now; may I take a message?” When I do that, I don’t feel in the least that I’ve somehow performed a disservice to that sales person or to God; in fact, when I know already I’m not going to buy their product it saves them the time of giving me their fruitless spiel (or the ugliness of my becoming rude) and increases their profit. I’d say it’s a win-win.

Alan

 

[Mt19_26]

Lying is not always mortal. Here’s what is says in the catechism:

2484 The gravity of a lie is measured against the nature of the truth it deforms, the circumstances, the intentions of the one who lies, and the harm suffered by its victims. If a lie in itself only constitutes a venial sin, it becomes mortal when it does grave injury to the virtues of justice and charity.

For example, I believe that if you lie about adultery to your spouse. Because it’s a grave matter it’s a mortal sin. Also, if you lie about a simple phone call in which you took a message for someone (ie. roommate, spouse, etc) and by them not getting the message they are harmed. That too is a mortal sin. A simple white lie is only venial, however, that doesn’t make it ‘ok’ to do.