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Robertanthony
Guest
Ok, people were like infants, morally and spiritually, in biblical times and much wasn’t expected of them. Is that what it’s saying?
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Robertanthony
Guest
Okay thank you Bookcat. Your tact (“there is a misunderstanding present” instead of “you got it all wrong” or “you’re confused”) did not go unnoticed.
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Bookcat
Guest
Here is a post I did before (augmented):
First off there could always be the question – “is such and such a lie?” or is the matter …the “object” (scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a4.htm#1750) in question a different one --where it is simply not “lying”? I leave that to the professional moral theologians to hash out… But such is a real question I would think.
Now…after having said that
–Yes it is a sin to lie…always (see CCC)
But one can use certain licit “mental reservations”…“discreet language”.
Now failing such…
Now lets say one is in the very serious event of the Nazi at the door (or a killer looking for your child)… and one can not find those discreet words…and others lives are at stake …and one thus ends up lying. What then? Well of course one should have found the other way. But in our weakness we sin …indeed we commit venial sins daily …hence they are called at times “daily sins” for which we pray daily “forgive us our trespasses”…and certainly ones culpability will likely be even further reduced by the event of the Nazi’s with the guns at your door…so ones venial sin will be reduced to an even smaller venial sin…which God in his knowing mercy can wipe away as one glances at the Crucifix with prayer after the Nazi’s leave…
God knows that in our seeking to live the varied virtues in our lives we will have venial sins in the process…that we being “saints” …being a new creation in Christ in the state of grace…in charity …living in Christ will still have “daily sins” to pray for. He loves us and continues to purify us with his love. (Not that such is an excuse to not seek to overcome our sins more and more in our lives …nor ought we seek or plan to lie in this case …but rather seek to find the right way. It is just that in the world where various kinds of virtues must be lived in difficult circumstances -we are not always going to find the right way to do so to live each one at that moment as we ought-- we will commit venial sins unfortunately)
Other examples could also be given …
Now all this* does not* make it “good” to lie. Or not a sin to lie. Nor does the ends in this circumstance “justify” the means of the lie. It remains a lie. A sin. But so too does the intemperance that one exhibited that morning at breakfast with too many eggs or the little anger one expressed at ones spouse that afternoon. If one falls here too…it will be another venial sin. Another weakness. I am not saying it is “ok” to thus lie or “hey it is only a venial sin in various cases” or encouraging anyone to lie etc. It is something that ought not have happened. One ought to have found a good way.
But it is somewhat understandable that it may happen in such events of Nazi’s at the door… even to Christians. To saints.
And there is really no point in trying to argue too much about such….
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mcw013
Guest
You cannot judge a person because they look like a “weirdo”. Some people happen to have really weird personalities and ways of expressing themself, that does not mean that their “looks and actions” brand them as being good or bad, but in the event they do turn out to be “bad”, they can always be blocked or avoided.
Where I am from does not matter, I have been constantly on the move with family since I was 6 years old, I continued moving when I was older due to work and studies, family business etc, etc, and I am still on the move. I have lived in 63 different countries through the course of my life (times I lived, varied from country to country and the reasons I was there). PLUS I have briefly visited (not lived) in 15 others. As I said where I am, does not matter, in fact I do not know exactly where I will be in a couple months from now. Sometimes not stating your location has alot more to do than just privacy. It is easier for me to say my location is “personal” than to change it every few months, or every two or three weeks, and on the rare occassion maybe even every week.
With that said, my interaction with people is quite different from the most. People are not that different from each other, and every society and culture has the same problems, just on varying levels. Yes I would have given my number, it is not really about how weird a person is, but how capable or willing you are of handling interactions with the person. A person who meets you in a supermarket will definitely have a rough idea of where you live, but an internet forum is a completely different story.
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fred_conty
Guest
When a salesman comes to the door and your wife says your not at home, it is not a sin of lying. Our society has a customary way of knowing that a person may be at home and yet does not want to come to the door. That is just just a polite way of saying “he is not home to you.” How about that salesmen? Is that the truth or not? Our society accepts that as a norm and it is a way of expressing our un-desire to see someone. Every salesman knows that and I’m sure everyone who rang a doorbell knows that. In fact, when told that, they stand there and say it will only take a few minutes of his time. Which means they caught the real drift of it.
The same thing with answering the phone, “no John is not home right now” (to you!). They know that. That’s customary.
In my opinion this would be exactly the answer to the Nazis knocking and asking. Of course they know you are going to say “no”, would they think any differently? They only ask the question on chance that you might just say “yes”. And when they say “no” don’t they barge in anyway. Dosen’t that say they know you are going to say “no” and they know that.
I think the same thing with the Taxi driver.
Just some thoughts.
The same thing with answering the phone, “no John is not home right now” (to you!). They know that. That’s customary.
In my opinion this would be exactly the answer to the Nazis knocking and asking. Of course they know you are going to say “no”, would they think any differently? They only ask the question on chance that you might just say “yes”. And when they say “no” don’t they barge in anyway. Dosen’t that say they know you are going to say “no” and they know that.
I think the same thing with the Taxi driver.
Just some thoughts.
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SilverCamellia
Guest
Lots of different answers here 
I’d like to suggest that using ‘discreet language’ is not always an option when asked a direct question, as the person will know they’ve not been answered and will hound for more information.
I’m not sure what some of the people on this thread would do if they were put in a situation where the truth would be dangerous. Would they stay on their moral high horse and tell the truth, no matter what the consequences?
But I suppose the polarity of the answers is my own fault, caused by the thread title. Some are going to say ‘Yes, lying is always wrong and intrinsically evil’ and others are going to say, ‘Well, it depends on the situation …’.
I have been thinking about my own situation, and the ones people have mentioned (such as lying to Nazis), and I have come to the conclusion that it’s God’s opinion that matters the most. We don’t know what that is, but I assume that he is going to allow a bit of lying sometimes for self-protection and things such as lying to help a friend feel better (if say they ask if you like what they are wearing and you say ‘Great’ when you don’t actually like it), compared to major instances of lying such as saying you haven’t committed a murder when you have. I think that God knows the intent of every person when they lie and he will be able best to judge the intent behind the lie.
I’d like to suggest that using ‘discreet language’ is not always an option when asked a direct question, as the person will know they’ve not been answered and will hound for more information.
I’m not sure what some of the people on this thread would do if they were put in a situation where the truth would be dangerous. Would they stay on their moral high horse and tell the truth, no matter what the consequences?
But I suppose the polarity of the answers is my own fault, caused by the thread title. Some are going to say ‘Yes, lying is always wrong and intrinsically evil’ and others are going to say, ‘Well, it depends on the situation …’.
I have been thinking about my own situation, and the ones people have mentioned (such as lying to Nazis), and I have come to the conclusion that it’s God’s opinion that matters the most. We don’t know what that is, but I assume that he is going to allow a bit of lying sometimes for self-protection and things such as lying to help a friend feel better (if say they ask if you like what they are wearing and you say ‘Great’ when you don’t actually like it), compared to major instances of lying such as saying you haven’t committed a murder when you have. I think that God knows the intent of every person when they lie and he will be able best to judge the intent behind the lie.
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rorydaman
Guest
Well I guess it is a good thing that people hiding jews in WW2 weren’t “good” catholics.
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rorydaman
Guest
Well obviously a good Catholic would tell a murderer where their child is…because lying is evil and one evil is not better than another. It is better to have a murdered child than have to lie to a murderer obviously. It is what Jesus would have wanted.
Remember when Jesus healed on the Sabbath and the pharisees were unimpressed because he was working on the sabbath? I guess he was sinnning.
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shaky
Guest
Lying to damage another or for fraud etc Ones conscience should kick in telling oneself they have done wrong. lying to protect others or oneself from unnecessary grief or evil intent from others. ones conscience does not kick in.
I wonder what a priest would say in confession about the latter ?
I guess the 4 black blokes in my taxi may have thought i was lying to their questions because one of them said to me Jokingly. We was Just wondering if it was worth robbing you.
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ilySHJ
Guest
John 8:44
You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Jesus doesn’t say Satan is the father of only wicked malicious lies, or the father of all lies except the okay lies … the white lies, lies to protect others or oneself.
Picking up thugs in your taxi or hiding Catholics in your basement in China - there’s bound to be a statement you can truthfully make to throw them off-track. The situation may lessen ones culpability, but the truth is always best.
Very few people lie successfully. There’s an old saying that the only person you ever lie to is yourself. People who lie often may become immune to it, but the rest of us usually spot them. They just feel wrong.
You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Jesus doesn’t say Satan is the father of only wicked malicious lies, or the father of all lies except the okay lies … the white lies, lies to protect others or oneself.
Picking up thugs in your taxi or hiding Catholics in your basement in China - there’s bound to be a statement you can truthfully make to throw them off-track. The situation may lessen ones culpability, but the truth is always best.
Very few people lie successfully. There’s an old saying that the only person you ever lie to is yourself. People who lie often may become immune to it, but the rest of us usually spot them. They just feel wrong.
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Carina20
Guest
You could always yell, “LEAVE ME ALONE, YOU CRAZY PERSON!” 
That’s not lying and she would have definitely left you alone to avoid store security. There are always ways to avoid lying and to get someone to take the hint, even if you have to be stern about it.
That’s not lying and she would have definitely left you alone to avoid store security. There are always ways to avoid lying and to get someone to take the hint, even if you have to be stern about it.
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Carina20
Guest
So, what gave you the assumption that these men would rob you? Because they asked how much money you made? Because they were in a group? Because they were black? You are not obligated to answer every question someone asks you. You can always say, "that’s not for you to know."or “I am not permitted to discuss that.” Many people get their wallets or purses snatched without any question about what’s in them.
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Aeden
Guest
That’s only not a sin because it is the lesser of two evils, isn’t it? If you didn’t you’d be allowing the murder of the Jew hiding.
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shaky
Guest
The question they asked me suggested Motive. The fact that one of them said Jokingly we was Just wondering if it was worth robbing you showed what their thoughts were. Even if they did decide to rob me they would have thought i was telling them the truth because i had most of the money hidden else where in the car like in the boot.
Taxi-driving is one of the most very stressful Jobs going. If i would have given the answers you suggested. It is liable to create a atmosphere and their is nothing more worst then going through high stress durring a Journey.
Rehab the Prostitute protected the Israelite spies with lying yet why is this counted as an act of Faith.?
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kalbertone
Guest
The magisterium also taught slavery is moral in the name of natural law(Pope Pius IX),then said it was intrinsically evil(pope JP II Veratatia Splendour),it taught Usury was always wrong & said it was heresy(Council Of Vienne),Popes also followed suit but laity rejected it & the Holy office in the late 1800s stated those who charge interest at moderate rates are not to be disturbed.You have a right to act according to conscience & not fallible medeval moral theories that u promulgate.According to your logic Christ sinned by healing on the sabbath
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Chayla
Guest
I will have to start my own thread, because I have a question about a very SPECIFIC type of lying that is ubiquitous.
Most do this type of lie, even when they detest … it is for SELF-PROTECTION, different than the common example of “hiding a Jew from a Nazi”, which is to protect another.
I am talking about lying to your employer so you can maintain employent!
Thank you!!!
Most do this type of lie, even when they detest … it is for SELF-PROTECTION, different than the common example of “hiding a Jew from a Nazi”, which is to protect another.
I am talking about lying to your employer so you can maintain employent!
Thank you!!!
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