Is Paul an Apostle?

[_thaddeus]

Isn’t that what I have been saying all along? Okay, one more time. Paul is the twelfth apostle. Matthias is a bishop, nothing more.

Not good at all.

Benedict tells us: “… while there is no lack of unworthy and traitorous Christians in the Church, it is up to each of us to counterbalance the evil done by them …” vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061018_en.html

Grasping for personal inerrancy and self-esteem at any cost does not further your credibility. It is pitiful and sorrowful. Your argument is a shameful strange brew of “ignorance mixed with arrogance” and “deliberate deception”.

Attempting to foist your authority over that of all the translators and translations of the bible, the Church, Pope Emiritus Benedict XVI, Protestants and Catholics is funny.

That you see “fundamental problems here that completely undermine the teaching authority of the church.” is worthy of derision.

A suggestion repeated:
Swallow your irrational pride. Acknowledge that your personal understanding may (possibly, perhaps, conceivably, maybe) not be inerrantly correct.

If your compulsion prevents you, then so be it.

 

[rcwitness]

Not good at all.

Benedict tells us: “… while there is no lack of unworthy and traitorous Christians in the Church, it is up to each of us to counterbalance the evil done by them …” vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061018_en.html

Grasping for personal inerrancy and self-esteem at any cost does not further your credibility. It is pitiful and sorrowful. Your argument is a shameful strange brew of “ignorance mixed with arrogance” and “deliberate deception”.

Attempting to foist your authority over that of all the translators and translations of the bible, the Church, Pope Emiritus Benedict XVI, Protestants and Catholics is funny.

That you see “fundamental problems here that completely undermine the teaching authority of the church.” is worthy of derision.

A suggestion repeated:
Swallow your irrational pride. Acknowledge that your personal understanding may (possibly, perhaps, conceivably, maybe) not be inerrantly correct.

If your compulsion prevents you, then so be it.

Thaddeus,

May I suggest making peace with ezeekl? This is not an issue of denying authority and misunderstanding the Gospel. Ezeekl has shown to us that there is no direct reference of Mattias being called an Apostle in the strict sense. I say, fair enough.

My question is, what then is Matthias Bishop of? Wouldn’t he be Bishop of the Church like the other 12? He was numbered with them. His appointing was prophesized. Ezeekl is trying to distinquish his place in contrast with Paul in order to fill the number 12. But the number 12 was already filled with Matthias, so it is a road that goes nowhere. But no worries, cuz it isnt important.

Michael

 

[_thaddeus]

Thaddeus,

May I suggest making peace with ezeekl? This is not an issue of denying authority and misunderstanding the Gospel. Ezeekl has shown to us that there is no direct reference of Mattias being called an Apostle in the strict sense. I say, fair enough.

My question is, what then is Matthias Bishop of? Wouldn’t he be Bishop of the Church like the other 12? He was numbered with them. His appointing was prophesized. Ezeekl is trying to distinquish his place in contrast with Paul in order to fill the number 12. But the number 12 was already filled with Matthias, so it is a road that goes nowhere. But no worries, cuz it isnt important.

Michael

Thanks for the feedback Michael.

My buddy Benedict might disagree with what “ezeekl has shown”

This is an issue of denying authority. He claims that he proves “fundamental problems here that completely undermine the teaching authority of the church.” Isn’t that a bit problematic and unacceptable?

I think it is important for ezeekl at least to not preach this. He’s Catholic. Eh?

When you say “But the number 12 was already filled with Matthias, so it is a road that goes nowhere.” Of course, I’m in total agreement.

If there is such a thing as too much charity; perhaps he has been given more than he deserves.

 

[ezeekl]

Not good at all.

Benedict tells us: “… while there is no lack of unworthy and traitorous Christians in the Church, it is up to each of us to counterbalance the evil done by them …” vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061018_en.html

Grasping for personal inerrancy and self-esteem at any cost does not further your credibility. It is pitiful and sorrowful. Your argument is a shameful strange brew of “ignorance mixed with arrogance” and “deliberate deception”.

Attempting to foist your authority over that of all the translators and translations of the bible, the Church, Pope Emiritus Benedict XVI, Protestants and Catholics is funny.

That you see “fundamental problems here that completely undermine the teaching authority of the church.” is worthy of derision.

A suggestion repeated:
Swallow your irrational pride. Acknowledge that your personal understanding may (possibly, perhaps, conceivably, maybe) not be inerrantly correct.

If your compulsion prevents you, then so be it.

Listen, I am not an unreasonable person. Just show me where Matthias is called an Apostle. I can show you ten places in scripture where Paul is called an apostle. I find none for Matthias. Apparently that is asking too much for you. Being “numbered with” does not make one an Apostle no more than having ninety nine white sheep and one black sheep in a flock of one hundred make that one sheep white. You got twelve bishops eleven of whom are apostles and one is not.

 

[rcwitness]

An interesting difference with Pauls Apostleship and the twelve is in 1st Corinthians 1:17

“For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of elequent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.”

Again, this is not to take away from Paul’s Apostleship, but to make a distinction from that of the 12. They were in fact sent to baptize all nations.

Matt. 28:18

“…All authority in heaven and earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

It seems the ministry of the 12 had at least this distinction from Paul’s…? The 12 had the full commission of Jesus upon them, while Paul seems to have the revelation of the gospel in order to preach and suffer as a witness to the Lord’s grace in him.

Michael

 

[Jerry-Jet]

THE 11 had the authority given to them by God to round out the 12.

They prayed that His will would be done when they cast the lot and it fell on Matthias.

Matthias followed Jesus for 3 years.

What is retarded is to think that Mathias followed Jesus for three years and never had a personal interaction with Him Everything isn’t written in the bible.

Who believes that Matthias would judge the 12 tribes of Israel and NOT be an apostle? That is SO dumb!

“The 12” will judge the 12 tribes of Israel. Do you think that Jesus had Matthias fill out the number of “THE 12” and did not SEN him which would make him an apostle?!

Who could NOT believe that Jesus SENT him?

Do you think that Matthias would say–I followed Jesus for 3 years–the apostles prayed that God’s will would be done and I was numbered with them but I was NEVER sent–so I’m not an apostle–so I just sat around in Jerusalem as the UNSENT NON APOSTLE of “THE 12”

What kind of sense does that make?

Truth is more than just EXPLICIT–it is also IMPLICIT.

Pray that we all will have minds large enough to grasp that truth! The Catholic Church sometimes has taught us IMPLICIT truth.

And sometimes when the Catholic Church has not explicitly definitively spoken–since we are commanded by Jesus to "Love the Lord with our entire minds–we must grasp the IMPLICIT truths of the bible that are there but not in an explicit way.

One numbered with “The 12” would be sent–he wouldn’t sit around doing nothing and saying to himself–I am UNSENT by Jesus but he still wants me to judge the 12 tribes of Israel. Who can believe that? Who doesn’t get that?

I’ll always believe that Matthias was sent by Jesus and IS" an apostle even if the bible doesn’t explicitly say it–how could Matthias judge the 12 tribes of Israel and NOT be sent by Jesus?

Thst doesn’t make any sense!

 

[ezeekl]

What doesn’t make sense is your post. READ scripture and UNDERSTAND what it says. Peter calls for somone to fill the office of bishop vacated by Judas. That is what scripture says [Acts 1:20] Peter also says that Judas’ Apostleship [his habitation or house] would be desolate and no one would live there. The word house means linneage. See Luke 1:27 where Joseph is said to be of the house of David meaning he was a descendant of David.

You say, ““The 12” will judge the 12 tribes of Israel. Do you think that Jesus had Matthias fill out the number of “THE 12” and did not SEN him which would make him an apostle?!”

Then what about Paul? Scripture calls Paul an Apostle no less than 10 times. Maybe Paul is that 12th apostle. Or do you think that scripture is wrong? Or maybe the Holy Spirit screwed up? Do you think so? If you haven’t done soplease read all of this thread. I answered the points you bring up in several of my posts.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

God willed Matthias to be the 12th apostle. He didn’t will Paul or Barnabas to be the 12th apostle. TO be Catholic is to cease being a biblical literalist.

Name the Doctors of the Catholic Church who claim that Paul is the 12th apostle and Matthias isn’t the 12th apostle.

 

[ezeekl]

Well, let’s see now, the Holy Spirit calls Paul an apostle 10 times yet you claim God did not will it. That is interesting. But not as interesting as your comment about “being a biblical literalist” makes one a Catholic. Pray tell where did you get that idea? Certainly not from any of the Doctors of the Church. Did it ever occur to you that the Doctors of the Church did not comment on Paul’s apostleship because scripture made it abundantly clear no less than ten times?

 

[Jerry-Jet]

If Paul was called by God 12 trillion times it still would not make Paul one of the 12.

Matthias is one of the 12. Paul isn’t. Apostle he is–one of the 12-- he was not then-- is not now–and never will be.

A person does not have to be mentioned as called by God to be an apostle in the bible to be an apostle.

God can call a person to be an apostle outside of biblical mention.

How can anyone dispute that?

I don’t dispute Paul’s apostleship.

What I dispute is that he is one of the 12–that is something different than apostleship–it wouldn’t even matter if he were the 13th person ever called by God to be an apostle–that still would not make him one of the 12.

What I also dispute is the claim that Matthias can not be an apostle because the bible doesn’t explicitly mention it. Who believes that?

I also believe that the very fact of being chosen as one of the 12 means that Matthias was sent and therefore was an apostle–why would God will him to be one of the 12 and NOT send him? Can anyone explain that? How much sense does that make?

What I most of all dispute is the fact that as great as St. Paul–the apostle to the gentiles and author of more books of the New Testament than that of any other apostle and the co founder with St. Peter of the church in Rome–that he was one of the 12–he wasn’t!

That doesn’t detract from St. Paul.

I guarantee you that if you asked St. Paul if St. Matthias was one of the 12 and that he was indeed sent as an apostle that he would say yes.

I don’t see why anyone would want to denigrate St. Matthias by saying that he wasn’t sent and trying to say that Jesus sent Paul but didn’t send St. Matthias.

St. Paul wasn’t chosen as pope when Peter died either–St. Linus was.

Paul was an apostle sent by Jesus but the verification of that call came through St. Peter and the church.

Did Jesus personally send St. Matthias as an apostle? Who knows? It is possible and just because it isn’t mentioned in the bible does mean that it didn’t happen.

Does anyojne believe that St. Matthias became one of ther 12 and sat down in Jerusalem and never told people about Jesus until the day he died because he wasn’t personally sent by Jesus? Who believes that?

If Jesus did not personally send him maybe Peter or the other 12 certainly sent him and if not them then God the Holy Spirit sent him and if the apostles or the Holy Spirit sent him then HE IS AN APOSTLE–and it is altogether possible that he was sent BEFORE St. Paul was sent.

So what is the purpose of this thread? TO ascertain the apostleship of St. Paul? Everyone believes that! To say that St. Paul was really Jesus’ choice to round out the 12 and that Matthias wasn’t Jesus’ choice and wasn’t an apostle? Why should anyone believe that?

 

[ezeekl]

If Paul was called by God 12 trillion times it still would not make Paul one of the 12.

Matthias is one of the 12. Paul isn’t. Apostle he is–one of the 12-- he was not then-- is not now–and never will be.

A person does not have to be mentioned as called by God to be an apostle in the bible to be an apostle.

God can call a person to be an apostle outside of biblical mention.

How can anyone dispute that?

I don’t dispute Paul’s apostleship.

What I dispute is that he is one of the 12–that is something different than apostleship–it wouldn’t even matter if he were the 13th person ever called by God to be an apostle–that still would not make him one of the 12.

What I also dispute is the claim that Matthias can not be an apostle because the bible doesn’t explicitly mention it. Who believes that?

I also believe that the very fact of being chosen as one of the 12 means that Matthias was sent and therefore was an apostle–why would God will him to be one of the 12 and NOT send him? Can anyone explain that? How much sense does that make?

What I most of all dispute is the fact that as great as St. Paul–the apostle to the gentiles and author of more books of the New Testament than that of any other apostle and the co founder with St. Peter of the church in Rome–that he was one of the 12–he wasn’t!

That doesn’t detract from St. Paul.

I guarantee you that if you asked St. Paul if St. Matthias was one of the 12 and that he was indeed sent as an apostle that he would say yes.

I don’t see why anyone would want to denigrate St. Matthias by saying that he wasn’t sent and trying to say that Jesus sent Paul but didn’t send St. Matthias.

St. Paul wasn’t chosen as pope when Peter died either–St. Linus was.

Paul was an apostle sent by Jesus but the verification of that call came through St. Peter and the church.

Did Jesus personally send St. Matthias as an apostle? Who knows? It is possible and just because it isn’t mentioned in the bible does mean that it didn’t happen.

Does anyojne believe that St. Matthias became one of ther 12 and sat down in Jerusalem and never told people about Jesus until the day he died because he wasn’t personally sent by Jesus? Who believes that?

If Jesus did not personally send him maybe Peter or the other 12 certainly sent him and if not them then God the Holy Spirit sent him and if the apostles or the Holy Spirit sent him then HE IS AN APOSTLE–and it is altogether possible that he was sent BEFORE St. Paul was sent.
Jerry-Jet;11427939:

So what is the purpose of this thread? TO ascertain the apostleship of St. Paul? Everyone believes that! To say that St. Paul was really Jesus’ choice to round out the 12 and that Matthias wasn’t Jesus’ choice and wasn’t an apostle? Why should anyone believe that?

It is interesting that you base your position on reason alone and ignore scripture. But in scripture Jesus called men to be Apostles. They were not elected by lot and Jesus did not lay hands on them. Yet the Apostles drew lots and laid hands on Matthias. Why was that done if he was, as you claim, chosen by Jesus. Bishops are consecrated by the laying on of hands not Apostles. Mattias was chosen to fill the office of bishop episkope that Judas vacated. According to Luke, the Greek word episkope is most definitely used by the pope (Peter) here. He does not use the word apostolos. If he did then things would be different.

You make this statement:

“God can call a person to be an apostle outside of biblical mention.”

Sure he can but did He? And let us not ignore the fact that Paul was called by God and that is recorded in scripture. So why not stick with what God has revealed to us in scripture and not go off into the speculative land of could have, might have, should have, etc.?

 

[Jerry-Jet]

If we only stuck to what was in scripture we would be Protestants–not Catholics.

How is a bishop NOT SENT?

If Matthias is only a bishop–is he an UNSENT bishop?

What is he a bishop of–the UNSENT in all the world?

It is quite unintelligent to think that because the bible does not mention something that it is not true.

The Assumption of Mary isn’t mentioned in scripture but it is quite true.

How can ANY bishop be UNSENT?

Apostles were SENT and personally knew Jesus.

So let’s get this straight–Matthias followed Jesus for three years and personally knew him and the Holy Spirit inspired his election but he was also UNSENT and therefore not an apostle! What kind of sense does that make?

Barnabas was an apostle and he wasn’t of the 12 either. We never hear the story of Barnabas being SENT–who SENT him?

Does it matter?

My point is the church was on the move and growing after Jesus’ ascension–we don’t have to have an exact scripture to point to to know that there were apostles besides the 12. The bible doesn’t have to beat us over the head and say–this exact person is an apostle–an unless it is explicitly stated here in the bible that a person is an apostle then no person can be an apostle!

Who believes that?

And yes Catholics are permitted to use reason!

How many people do you think knew Jesus and were SENT?

Besides the 12 there were the seventy that were sent out two by two. Do you think NONE of them were SENT after Jesus ascended into heaven?

500 viewed Jesus after he arose from the dead–do you think that NONE of them were SENT?

Do you think that ONLY the 11 and St. Paul were SENT to spread the gospel?

How could there not be MORE that were SENT? Are you telling me that the 11 and St. Paul SENT no one NOWHERE until they died that had seen Jesus at sometime in their lifetime? What kind of sense does that make?

Look–to be sure–the 12 and St. Paul were believed and honored most by people seeking to know about Jesus–they saw him–the 12 lived with him for three years–just as Matthias lived with him for 3 years.

But there were many who had known Jesus–do you think that people like Lazarus who had been risen from the dead–and Zacheaus who followed Jesus after climbing the Sycamore tree to see him–do you think that NO people like that were SENT by either the other disciples or the Holy Spirit to spread the word?

The bible is NOT exhaustive. There are many things that happened that we do not know. Do you think that NO ONE in Rome had heard about Jesus before Peter and Paul got there? DO you think that the Holy Spirit didn’t SEND~some people that had known Jesus while he was here on Earth to tell people about Jesus in Rome?

I don’t think anyone kept an up to date official list about who was an apostle and who wasn’t. I’m sure there were probably even some people in those days who CLAIMED to have seen Jesus and didn’t. Or claimed to be SENT by the apostles and weren’t SENT.

There are many Protestants who claim that Paul was meant by Jesus to round out the 12–I think there motivation in doing this is to elevate Paul because they naturally try to lower Peter because of their theology.

I give St. Paul his due honor. What I don’t do is dishonor Matthias. Remember when Matthias was elected by lot to be one of the 12 the episcopacy wasn’t laid out in stone. The 12 would of course be bishops as Luke years later would WRITE but at the time of Matthias being chosen for the office that office was one more of being SENT to spread the gospel because of one thoroughly KNOWING Jesus.

Matthias wasn’t elected to JUST an episcopal office but also an apostolic office.

Do you think that Matthias could have exercised authority as a bishop–and not only a bishop–but one of the 12–and not also be an APOSTLE? How could that be?

How could Matthias judge the 12 tribes of Israel WITHOUT being SENT?

The 12 were special because they had LIVED with Jesus–that is why Paul refers to himself as the LEAST of Christ’s apostles.

If he is the LEAST–are you going to tell me that Matthias LIVED with Jesus for three years–was chosen to be one of the 12 and yet wasn’t an apostle?

That doesn’t make sense and yes folks–we as Catholics aren’t sola scripturaists and we do use reason as we try to love God with all our minds!

 

[ezeekl]

If we only stuck to what was in scripture we would be Protestants–not Catholics.

Wrong, if everybody “stuck to what was in scripture” then everybody would be Catholic. The scriptures are Catholic scriptures, not protestant.

How is a bishop NOT SENT?

Everyone is sent. At the end of every divine liturgy the faithful are told to “Go and proclaim the gospel” In fact that is how we got the word ‘Mass’ from the Latin word missa meaning to send.

Apostles were SENT and personally knew Jesus.

Matthias was never sent by Jesus and there is no requirement that one has to know Jesus to be an apostle. The requirement, at that time, that Peter made in Acts 1 was that to be considered for the office of bishop, one had to accompany Jesus from His Baptism to His resurrection. The reason was obvious. The apostles had no seminaries like we have today. The apostles, as disciples of Jesus, learned from Him while He was on earth. That was their seminary and they wanted someone who went through the same teaching as they did. Later when other bishops were consecrated like Timothy, Titus, Polycarp, Ignatius, Clement, Elvodius, etc. That requirement was unnecessary because these bishops learned from the apostles since they were the apostles’ disciples.

So let’s get this straight–Matthias followed Jesus for three years and personally knew him and the Holy Spirit inspired his election but he was also UNSENT and therefore not an apostle! What kind of sense does that make?"

Well first of all that is not straight but crooked. You see all of the Apostles, including Paul, were sent by Jesus. Matthias was sent but not by Jesus. Matthias was sent by the Church just as Timothy, Titus, Polycarp, Ignatius, Clement, Dionysius, Elvodius and all the bishops there after were and are being sent to this day.
Jerry-Jet;11433642:

Barnabas was an apostle and he wasn’t of the 12 either. We never hear the story of Barnabas being SENT–who SENT him?

Barnabus was sent by the church, not by Christ. Is there a difference? Yes, see below.

Does it matter?

Yes, it does if you claim that what you teach is truth. If you teach that there are twelve Apostles who sit on twelve thrones and who judge the tribes of Israel as scripture states and the church teaches. That being the case how can you have more than twelve Apostles?

My point is the church was on the move and growing after Jesus’ ascension–we don’t have to have an exact scripture to point to to know that there were apostles besides the 12. The bible doesn’t have to beat us over the head and say–this exact person is an apostle–an unless it is explicitly stated here in the bible that a person is an apostle then no person can be an apostle!

Who believes that?

And yes Catholics are permitted to use reason!

How many people do you think knew Jesus and were SENT?

Besides the 12 there were the seventy that were sent out two by two. Do you think NONE of them were SENT after Jesus ascended into heaven?

Yadda, yadda, yadda. I cut off the rest of your post because like a train, once you get off the track nothing goes right. If you read my prior posts on this thread I pointed out that the Greek word Apostolos had both a generic meaning as well a specific meaning. Generically we are all apostles although the Latin derived word ‘missionary’ is more commonly used. Again the word ‘missionary’ comes from the same Latin word ‘missa’ that we get the word Mass from. It is also the base for our word ‘emit’ meaning to issue or send forth.

The specific meaning of the word apostle is that of one of the men chosen and sent by Christ. There are only twelve such men that meet the requirements of being both chosen and sent by Jesus. Judas was chosen but never sent. Matthias was never chosen nor sent. Paul was both chosen and sent. It is Paul that scripture says is an Apostle. In fact scripture specifically calls Paul an apostle of Christ more than all the other eleven combined. And all scripture can say about Matthias is that, after he was elected, he was numbered with the eleven apostles. Being numbered with them doesn’t make him one of them. That is why there were still only eleven Apostles. Think of it this way, you have a flock of 100 sheep with 99 being white and 1 being black. Being black doesn’t make that one sheep white. But that black sheep is still numbered as a sheep. There were still eleven apostles after Matthias’ election, not twelve.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

So tell me this–the Catholic Church has honored the feast of St. Matthias the APOSTLE for centuries.

Are you going to tell me that the Catholic Church–led by the Holy Spirit is WRONG when it claims that Matthias is an apostle?

Can you name the Doctors of the Church who teach that Matthias isn’t an apostle?

Can you name the popes who teach that Matthias is not an apostle?

Is the Eastern church DOCTRINALLY wrong when it calls the seventy sent out by Jesus apostles?

And YES we are NOT Catholics if we only stick to scripture! The Catholic Church relies on Holy Scripture–Sacred Tradition–and the Magisterium of the bishops over the centuries led by the holy Spirit in agreement with the pope.

Back up the claim that it is NOT sacred tradition that Matthias is an apostle!

Back up your OPINION that Jesus NEVER sent Matthias. Were you there all the days while Matthias was following ?Jesus. Please tell us how you KNOW that Jesus never sent Matthias. Why should your OPINION that Matthias was never sent be believed?

Matthias is not a BLACK SHEEP chosen by the Holy Spirit.

And tell me this–how can the Holy Spirit CHOOSE Matthias and Jesus not CHOOSE Matthias? Are not the Holy Spirit and Jesus ONE? Did Jesus not say that the Holy Spirit proclaims what it has heard from Jesus?

How can Jesus then CHOOSE Matthias to be numbered with the 12 and NOT SEND Matthias?

When Matthias prayed toi Jesus and asked Him what His will for Him was do you think that Jesus said–“I do not send you!”?

Matthias being CHOSEN by Jesus and not SENT by Jesus is illogical!

And tell me this–how can you PROVE that Matthias was not there when Jesus ascended into heaven–how do you KNOW that He was NOT speaking to Matthias when He said–go therefore into all the world baptizing them in the name of the Father and the son, and the Holy Spirit. PROVE that the bible says that Matthias wasn’t there and wasn’t sent.

Also tell where any of the Doctors of the Church ever taught that it WASN’T a requirement to have SEEN Jesus to be an apostle. I have always HEARD that it was a requirement to have SEEN Jesus and yes St. Paul did SEE Jesus on the road to Damascus.

Are you going to say that Matthias didn’t SEE Jesus?

While St. Paul heard of Jesus’ three years of public ministry second hand–Matthias WAS THERE. Do you think it was God’s will for him to be there for three years and then NOT TO BE SENT?!

Matthias and Barsabas were pout forth as candidates to round out the 12. They weren’t Johnny come latelies!

Also PROVE why the 70 sent out by Jesus were not apostles–He SENT them!

They were apostles–can you PROVE that Matthias was not one of them?! The Eastern Church says that he was–are they stupid?

The 70 is PROOF Positive that there is a difference between THE TWELVE and being an apostle OUTSIDE the 12. Matthias was numbered with the 12 and Paul wasn’t.

You say that Matthias was NEVER chosen and NEVER sent.

Do you think that Pope Francis if publicly asked that question would agree with you?

 

[ezeekl]

So tell me this–the Catholic Church has honored the feast of St. Matthias the APOSTLE for centuries.

Are you going to tell me that the Catholic Church–led by the Holy Spirit is WRONG when it claims that Matthias is an apostle?

Can you name the Doctors of the Church who teach that Matthias isn’t an apostle?

Can you name the popes who teach that Matthias is not an apostle?

Is the Eastern church DOCTRINALLY wrong when it calls the seventy sent out by Jesus apostles?

And YES we are NOT Catholics if we only stick to scripture! The Catholic Church relies on Holy Scripture–Sacred Tradition–and the Magisterium of the bishops over the centuries led by the holy Spirit in agreement with the pope.

Back up the claim that it is NOT sacred tradition that Matthias is an apostle!

Back up your OPINION that Jesus NEVER sent Matthias. Were you there all the days while Matthias was following ?Jesus. Please tell us how you KNOW that Jesus never sent Matthias. Why should your OPINION that Matthias was never sent be believed?

Matthias is not a BLACK SHEEP chosen by the Holy Spirit.

And tell me this–how can the Holy Spirit CHOOSE Matthias and Jesus not CHOOSE Matthias? Are not the Holy Spirit and Jesus ONE? Did Jesus not say that the Holy Spirit proclaims what it has heard from Jesus?

How can Jesus then CHOOSE Matthias to be numbered with the 12 and NOT SEND Matthias?

When Matthias prayed toi Jesus and asked Him what His will for Him was do you think that Jesus said–“I do not send you!”?

Matthias being CHOSEN by Jesus and not SENT by Jesus is illogical!

And tell me this–how can you PROVE that Matthias was not there when Jesus ascended into heaven–how do you KNOW that He was NOT speaking to Matthias when He said–go therefore into all the world baptizing them in the name of the Father and the son, and the Holy Spirit. PROVE that the bible says that Matthias wasn’t there and wasn’t sent.

Also tell where any of the Doctors of the Church ever taught that it WASN’T a requirement to have SEEN Jesus to be an apostle. I have always HEARD that it was a requirement to have SEEN Jesus and yes St. Paul did SEE Jesus on the road to Damascus.

Are you going to say that Matthias didn’t SEE Jesus?

While St. Paul heard of Jesus’ three years of public ministry second hand–Matthias WAS THERE. Do you think it was God’s will for him to be there for three years and then NOT TO BE SENT?!

Matthias and Barsabas were pout forth as candidates to round out the 12. They weren’t Johnny come latelies!

Also PROVE why the 70 sent out by Jesus were not apostles–He SENT them!

They were apostles–can you PROVE that Matthias was not one of them?! The Eastern Church says that he was–are they stupid?

The 70 is PROOF Positive that there is a difference between THE TWELVE and being an apostle OUTSIDE the 12. Matthias was numbered with the 12 and Paul wasn’t.

No Matthias was numbered with the eleven apostles not twelve Look it up in Acts 1:26;

“26 And they gave them lots, and the lot fell upon Matthias, and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.” [DR version]

“26 And they gaue foorth their lots, and the lot fell vpon Matthias, and hee was numbred with the eleuen Apostles.” [KJV 1611]

“26 And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthi’as; and he was enrolled with the eleven apostles.” [RSV]

So we have eleven apostles before Matthias and eleven apostles after Matthias.

In addition the Catechism of the Catholic Church as well as the historical teaching of the church along with scripture says there were only twelve apostles chosen and sent by Jesus.

You say that Matthias was NEVER chosen and NEVER sent.

Not by Jesus he wasn’t. Matthias was a bishop of the church chosen and sent by the church. He represents the scriptural basis for the apostolic succession of bishops from the Apostles. Now if you claim he was an Apostle [meaning one of the twelve] because he succeeeded another apostle [Judas] which Peter said no one could succeed Judas because his [Judas’] linneage was desolate then you have the problem of answering the question as to which Apostle succeeded Peter or James or John or any of the others. The answer is, of course, that no apostle succeeded them and Apostolic Succession then becomes a mere whim.

Do you think that Pope Francis if publicly asked that question would agree with you?

Yeah, I think he would. Unless,of course he wanted to admit that the church was wrong in teaching that there were twelve apostles because there were really thirteen apostles and not the twelve that scripture says. Do you think he would do that?