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Odell
Guest
this was a comment made by moondweller I plan on comment on his post in a few hours. If anyone else wants to respond go right ahead
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Scoobyshme
Guest
First of all, I think you’re making a wrong assumption, i.e., that everything we believe must be explicitly (or otherwise) IN the Bible. That is a decidedly Protestant approach, and, actually, is extra-Biblical (outside of the Bible).
See John 21:25, that says that NOT everything Jesus did or taught is IN the Bible. Then, read Matt. 28:20 that says Jesus commanded the Apostles (and, by logical extension, their successors) to go forth and teach ALL that He had taught them. So, if everything is not IN the Bible, but the Apostles and their successors are to teach everything…where’s the part that’s not in the Bible that they are to teach!? Read 2 Thes 2:15 for the answer. It’s in Holy Tradition (a.k.a., oral tradition).
Now, I only say that to make sure you don’t fall into the trap that Protestants do in believing that if it’s not in the Bible, it cannot be Divinely revealed. That’s erroneous.
So, first, let’s define Penance. Penance here is a supernatural moral virtue whereby the sinner is disposed to hatred of his sin as an offence against God and to a firm purpose of amendment and satisfaction.
Now, it so happens that the notion of penance is in the Bible. In the Old Law (Ezekiel 18:24) life is denied to the man who does iniquity; even “his justices which he has done, shall not be remembered”; and Christ restates the doctrine of the Old Testament, saying (Luke 13:5): “except you do penance, you shall all likewise perish.” In the New Law, therefore, repentance is as necessary as it was in the Old, repentance that includes reformation of life, grief for sin, and willingness to perform satisfaction.
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Odell
Guest
- Sin results in guilt and punishment
- Punishments are both temperal and eternal.
- Temperal penalties may remain when a sin is forgiven.
- God blesses some people as a reward to others
- God remits temperal penalties suffered by some as a reward to others.
- This is the kicker 1Kings11:11-13. God was clear Solomon’s kingdom was not torn down not for Solomons sakebut for the sake of David. If david had not pleased God. God would have removed the entire kingdom.
There are other examples. God promised Abraham that if he could find a certain number of righteous men in Sodom he was willing to defer the city’s destruction for the sake of the righteous.
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Scoobyshme
Guest
I would expand them a little bit (more explaination). Example: Number 3. When we repent, if we don’t do enough penance, we may not wipe out the temporal punishment due us. Hence, Purgatory, etc.
But that’s just me…
But that’s just me…
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Odell
Guest
Moon do you believe in fasting and why? Because to a Catholic penance and fasting are closly related. A side note it has nothing to do with eternal salvation but the temperal penalties of sin.
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Priscilla_Ann
Guest
First of all, I think you’re making a wrong assumption, i.e., that everything we believe must be explicitly (or otherwise) IN the Bible. That is a decidedly Protestant approach, and, actually, is extra-Biblical (outside of the Bible).
See John 21:25, that says that NOT everything Jesus did or taught is IN the Bible. Then, read Matt. 28:20 that says Jesus commanded the Apostles (and, by logical extension, their successors) to go forth and teach ALL that He had taught them. So, if everything is not IN the Bible, but the Apostles and their successors are to teach everything…where’s the part that’s not in the Bible that they are to teach!? Read 2 Thes 2:15 for the answer. It’s in Holy Tradition (a.k.a., oral tradition).
Now, I only say that to make sure you don’t fall into the trap that Protestants do in believing that if it’s not in the Bible, it cannot be Divinely revealed. That’s erroneous.
So, first, let’s define Penance. Penance here is a supernatural moral virtue whereby the sinner is disposed to hatred of his sin as an offence against God and to a firm purpose of amendment and satisfaction.
Now, it so happens that the notion of penance is in the Bible. In the Old Law (Ezekiel 18:24) life is denied to the man who does iniquity; even “his justices which he has done, shall not be remembered”; and Christ restates the doctrine of the Old Testament, saying (Luke 13:5): “except you do penance, you shall all likewise perish.” In the New Law, therefore, repentance is as necessary as it was in the Old, repentance that includes reformation of life, grief for sin, and willingness to perform satisfaction.
Which bible translation are you using when you quote Luke 13:5? I have four translations: NASB, ESV, NKJV, NIV. In the NASB, Luke 13:5 reads, “I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.” The English Standard Version reads this way, “No, I tell you, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.”
The New King James reads, “I tell you, no; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.” The NIV says, “I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”
Penance is defined as “a punishment borne to show sorrow for sin, to make up for wrong done.”
Repentance is defined as “Sorrow for sin; regret for sin.”
Repentance is confessing and turning from our sin; however, the idea of penance would seem to indicate that we can pay for our own sin. Didn’t Christ pay for our sin on the cross? (Romans 8:1-4)
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Odell
Guest
yes he did the eternal consequences of our sin but there are temperal penalties as well. This is what penance is it willingly embraces this just as a child may willingly embrace discipline from a parent
Part of this is a mistery, since Christ sufferings are sufficient to wash us of all our temperal penalties. We often learn our lesson when we experience the negative consequences. When we learn our lesson we are transformed truly changed from within and this is the ultamite goal.
dont just take my word for it (Heb 12:5-13) “for the Lord diciplines those whom he loves; later it yields the peacefull fruit of rightousness to those wgo have been trained by it.”
Thats the difference and what many have a problem with. We cant attone or make reperations for our eternal salvation but we can for our temperal salvation. That is the whole point of penance fasting and indulgences.
Protestants im sorry but cant explain they dont understand the principles behind penance and fasting and indulgences.
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Priscilla_Ann
Guest
I notice that you quote from Hebrews 12:5-13. Check out Hebrews 7:25: “Therefore, he (Jesus) is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.” Jesus did it all – completely!
On the other hand, I do understand temporal punishment as consequences of sin. For example, if I steal from someone, my temporal punishment could be a prison sentence. This, however, is different from the Catholic concept of “penance”. For example, when I was a child, I would confess my sins to a priest. The penance he always gave me was “two Our Fathers and two Hail Marys”. When I was naughty, my parents disciplined me – that was my temporal punishment. What did my penance of “two Our Fathers and two Hail Mary’s” accomplish? That never made sense to me then and it certainly doesn’t now that I’m an adult.
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Odell
Guest
God does reward people for fasting and penance.
1Kgs.21:27-29 "And when Ahab heard those words, he rent his clothes and put sackcloth upon his flesh and fasted and lay in sackcloth and went about dejectedly. And the word of the Lord came to Elija saying “have you seen how Ahab has humbled himself before me? Because he has humbled himself before me, I will not bring evil in his days but in his sons days I will bring evil upon his house”
Christ sufferings was sufficent for our eternal and temperal salvation. Christ however leaves us temperal penalties so we can learn from it. That is what Hebrews is addressing. Remember penance deals with consiqueces after the sin is already forgiven. The eternal debt was already delt with by Christ . But God is pleased by those who humble themselves And then can choose to lessen our penalty. These are very scriptual principles.
Think of this example some one who is hooked on porn. They confess and are forgiven. But the stain is still there they still struggle but instead of looking at a magazine they pray the rosary! See how that helps the soul! See how that merits not eternal salvation but temporal salvation.
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Priscilla_Ann
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Penance does not cleanse us, nor does it “merit temporal salvation.” This concept is not in scripture. The blood of Jesus cleanses us. See 1 John 1:9
“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from **all **unrighteousness.”
Notice that it does not say that we need to confess to a priest, nor does it mention penance. ** Jesus forgives **us and cleanses us from all unrighteousness. It’s very clear.
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Evan
Guest
There seems to be some confusion here. Forgiveness of sin and penance have little to do with each other. Forgiveness is something won for us by Christ. By our faith and repentance, our sins are forgiven when we express this repentance to Christ (through one authorized by Christ to forgive such sins… the bishop and those he delegates: the priests).
Penance is simply trying to clean up the mess left in us by our desire to continue to sin and from the damage done by the sin. The desire, and the damage, are still there when the sin is forgiven.
So all the bible quotes above that are dealing with forgiveness of sin are irrelevant to any discussion of Penance.
Penance tends to come in 3 forms: almsgiving, fasting, and prayer. Indulgences given for almsgiving have been removed because of misunderstandings. But the penance will be worked out here or there, now or then and indulgences are simply multipliers of the effect of penance.
It’s Catholic AND Biblical.
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Odell
Guest
Hold on cowgirl. Never said penance clenses us penance is done after we are already cleansed. And they only have to do with the temperal penalties of sin. And this concept is in scripture you don’t have an issue with numbes 2 and 3 of my original post do you?
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Church_Militant
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Scriptures About Penance
That is an article that I wrote about the scriptures on penance. Maybe they can add something to this discussion.
That is an article that I wrote about the scriptures on penance. Maybe they can add something to this discussion.
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JonathonofOhio
Guest
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I will add some to this…
1 Peter 4:16
Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in this matter.
James 5:10
My brethren, take the prophets, who spoke in the name of the Lord, as an example of suffering and patience.
1 Peter 2:19
For this is commendable, if because of conscience toward God one endures grief, suffering wrongfully.
1 Peter 2:20
For what credit is it if, when you are beaten for your faults, you take it patiently? But when you do good and suffer, if you take it patiently, this is commendable before God.
1 Peter 2:21
For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps
1 Peter 3:17-19
For it is better, if it is the will of God, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,…
1 Peter 4:1
Therefore, since Christ suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin,
1 Peter 4:16
Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in this matter.
Seems the bible has a lot to say about penance.
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bona_fides_1
Guest
Examine the word “repentance”. If you look at the word etymology or even look at the word roots you will see that it encompasses a concept “penance”. Penance is an integral part of repentance. As you should know from the earliest quotes of Christ before he even called the apostles he said: *Matthew 4:17 From that time on Jesus began to preach, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.” *
If you look at the Church history and the bible you will see that new initiates into the Christian faith ALWAYS repented by devout fasting and praying. This is PENANCE.
No one can be saved without repenting. Even a person who gets baptised and cleansed of his sins must as an adult FIRST repent (children exempted due to age of reason) and do penance to assist in making the repentance “stick” and form the will and to safeguard against the occasion of becoming as “the dog that returns to its own vomit” to sin again soon after. This is all part of cooperating with God’s grace and instilling the disciplines of grace viz hte vrtues of faith, hope and love. A real and genuine repentance is required. Penance is integral with that and helps anneal the will and the soul toward holy virtue (spiritual discipline) through corporeal discipline and mortification.
Protestant translations of the bible explicitly removed all Catholic terminology from the original bible translations so they could recraft the new Protestant “thin” theology into the new Christianity that King James commissioned to help hold his kingdom together from the already warring Protestant divisions. He used a common contempt for the Catholic Church among his Protestant factions to bring his bible rewrite committee into agreement with each other to form a new lingua franca for the new secular religion with him as its leader and king. It will help to learn some of the history of the bible translations. This is why no Protestant bibles use the original Christian words like “penance” in their translations since they want to deny the history of what really happened and what the real Christians always practised to make it easier for the masses to be good subjects to the King’s crafted religion.
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Shin
Guest
Read the Douay Rheims Bible and you’ll learn the importance of penance! It is essential and cannot be done without! 
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antonabe
Guest
As mentioned by several in this thread there are numerous instances where King’s pit on sackcloth and fasting and made a request that even the people follow suit when they offended God.In leviticus the number of offerings are well defined and Sin offering for Sins commited is als mentioned.God is Kind and also just it does not seem just that if a person leads a continuos life of Sin and then and at the point of death repents or makes his confession that he has gained the graces required to be in the presence of Almighty God by just this one act of repentance.That is where purgatory comes in where there is the process of purification of the soul.This is very well dealth with in the book of poems compiled by St John of the Cross, entitled Dark Night of the Soul, and it can be read online as well.He says in his work that the purification of the sould takes place in the furnace of tribulation.To amplify this people suffer in this world as a means of purification and they could also do penance as repentance of their sins and wpe out the stigma that is an impediment to perfection.To be in the presence of God after our death we have to put on the Garment so that we would be spotless and worthy to be in his presence and purgatory will take care of this if this is not done in this world.
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John_Martin
Guest
Acts 10:43 “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”
Acts 13:38 “Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,”
Acts 26:18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.’"
Col 1:14 “…in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.”
Rom 4:5-7 "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven, and whose sins have been covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.”
1 John 2:12 “I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name’s sake.”
Penance is necessary – Why?
Luke and Paul and John understood more than what you read in the verses above:
They received commission to forgive or retain sins in representation of the King. If you “believe in His Name”, then you also take seriously the commission he gave for where to “get” the forgiveness – there is no “going directly to God” on your own for forgiveness. It is only within and by the action of the Church, carrying out Jesus command to forgive sins. God justifies the ungodly by putting a People here that carries his forgiveness to you. “Your sins have been forgiven you for His name’s sake” by a Priest who is fulfilling Jesus’ commission to act in His Name’s sake.
What is Penance – it is the Priest calling you to do some deed, some task – and what kind of tasks? These “tasks” of penance are things that a child of God, a citizen of the Kingdom of God would naturally do without being told. “Say an Our Father”, “return what you stole”, “give a gift to the poor”, etc. What is the priest asking of you? He is asking you to gain practice at doing the deeds that are the marks of your real citizenship, your real “being” as a child of God. He is asking you to gain practice and proficiency at acting as a Christian, as a Catholic, rather than acting as an unbeliever (which is what you repented of when you confessed your sin – you turned away from sinful practices, and now he is giving you practices to perform as a Catholic would do).
Penance is a joyful thing – learning to take Catholic steps and forgetting how to take sinful steps.
Acts 13:38 “Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,”
Acts 26:18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.’"
Col 1:14 “…in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.”
Rom 4:5-7 "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven, and whose sins have been covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.”
1 John 2:12 “I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name’s sake.”
Penance is necessary – Why?
Luke and Paul and John understood more than what you read in the verses above:
They received commission to forgive or retain sins in representation of the King. If you “believe in His Name”, then you also take seriously the commission he gave for where to “get” the forgiveness – there is no “going directly to God” on your own for forgiveness. It is only within and by the action of the Church, carrying out Jesus command to forgive sins. God justifies the ungodly by putting a People here that carries his forgiveness to you. “Your sins have been forgiven you for His name’s sake” by a Priest who is fulfilling Jesus’ commission to act in His Name’s sake.
What is Penance – it is the Priest calling you to do some deed, some task – and what kind of tasks? These “tasks” of penance are things that a child of God, a citizen of the Kingdom of God would naturally do without being told. “Say an Our Father”, “return what you stole”, “give a gift to the poor”, etc. What is the priest asking of you? He is asking you to gain practice at doing the deeds that are the marks of your real citizenship, your real “being” as a child of God. He is asking you to gain practice and proficiency at acting as a Christian, as a Catholic, rather than acting as an unbeliever (which is what you repented of when you confessed your sin – you turned away from sinful practices, and now he is giving you practices to perform as a Catholic would do).
Penance is a joyful thing – learning to take Catholic steps and forgetting how to take sinful steps.
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