Is *subconscious* lust (or any other inappropriate wish) also a sin?

[Ana_v]

We know that lusting is gravely sinful.

I have a question (labled as #1 below), regarding lust, that is nuanced.

What can we say regarding lust or sexual desires that are in one’s subconscious?

What I mean is, let’s say that despite your carnal inclination to entertain and even act upon an impure sexual thought, you successfully avert your attention onto something else, pray, read Scripture, sing, etc. Such that it’s no longer in the forefront of your mind.

You might want it (sex with person “P”) but are refusing to deliberately entertain this urge in your thought life.

#1. With respect to the bolded, are you still sinning by virtue of the fact that “deep down” (so to speak) you are desiring the sex, notwithstanding that you are not physically participating in it, nor consciously wallowing in your desire?

#2. I was once heard this phrase: " I want what I do not want".

Can people relate to this?

Very seriously, what are you to conclude about the state of your soul, when you find yourself in a situation in which you want to sin but you don’t want to sin?

Perhaps thats a misleading way to word it. Another way to word it is, you are opposed to sin as a category. You don’t want to sin. But, there’s something that you do want, that happens to constitute as sinful (e.g. want someone’s spouse, want to gossip about what your co-worker’s personal drama, want somebody to die because of a horrible thing he/she did to you in the past, etc).

 

[Bookcat]

There is a difference between temptation and sin.

There is a difference between concupiscence and sin.

If ones will is against something…and one is as you note…seeking to run away etc…that is contrary to sin. Sin involves consent.

(if “you want it” means consent of the will…then yes sin enters…but if “you want it means that one feels the strong temptation …but one does not consent”…that is a different story)

What you seem to be talking (if it is the second notion in the line just above this one) about here is temptation and concupiscence.

A few lines from different sections of the Catechism:

405 Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.

1264 Yet certain temporal consequences of sin remain in the baptized, such as suffering, illness, death, and such frailties inherent in life as weaknesses of character, and so on, as well as an inclination to sin that Tradition calls concupiscence, or metaphorically, “the tinder for sin” (fomes peccati); since concupiscence “is left for us to wrestle with, it cannot harm those who do not consent but manfully resist it by the grace of Jesus Christ.” Indeed, “an athlete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules.”

978 "When we made our first profession of faith while receiving the holy Baptism that cleansed us, the forgiveness we received then was so full and complete that there remained in us absolutely nothing left to efface, neither original sin nor offenses committed by our own will, nor was there left any penalty to suffer in order to expiate them. . . . Yet the grace of Baptism delivers no one from all the weakness of nature. On the contrary, we must still combat the movements of concupiscence that never cease leading us into evil "

1426 Conversion to Christ, the new birth of Baptism, the gift of the Holy Spirit and the Body and Blood of Christ received as food have made us “holy and without blemish,” just as the Church herself, the Bride of Christ, is “holy and without blemish.” Nevertheless the new life received in Christian initiation has not abolished the frailty and weakness of human nature, nor the inclination to sin that tradition calls concupiscence, which remains in the baptized such that with the help of the grace of Christ they may prove themselves in the struggle of Christian life. This is the struggle of conversion directed toward holiness and eternal life to which the Lord never ceases to call us.

2520 Baptism confers on its recipient the grace of purification from all sins. But the baptized must continue to struggle against concupiscence of the flesh and disordered desires. With God’s grace he will prevail

• by the virtue and gift of chastity, for chastity lets us love with upright and undivided heart;
• by purity of intention which consists in seeking the true end of man: with simplicity of vision, the baptized person seeks to find and to fulfill God’s will in everything;
• by purity of vision, external and internal; by discipline of feelings and imagination; by refusing all complicity in impure thoughts that incline us to turn aside from the path of God’s commandments: “Appearance arouses yearning in fools”;
• by prayer:
  
  I thought that continence arose from one’s own powers, which I did not recognize in myself. I was foolish enough not to know . . . that no one can be continent unless you grant it. For you would surely have granted it if my inner groaning had reached your ears and I with firm faith had cast my cares on you.

 

[Robert_Sock]

We know that lusting is gravely sinful.

I have a question (labled as #1 below), regarding lust, that is nuanced.

What can we say regarding lust or sexual desires that are in one’s subconscious?

What I mean is, let’s say that despite your carnal inclination to entertain and even act upon an impure sexual thought, you successfully avert your attention onto something else, pray, read Scripture, sing, etc. Such that it’s no longer in the forefront of your mind.

You might want it (sex with person “P”) but are refusing to deliberately entertain this urge in your thought life.

#1. With respect to the bolded, are you still sinning by virtue of the fact that “deep down” (so to speak) you are desiring the sex, notwithstanding that you are not physically participating in it, nor consciously wallowing in your desire?

#2. I was once heard this phrase: " I want what I do not want".

Can people relate to this?

Very seriously, what are you to conclude about the state of your soul, when you find yourself in a situation in which you want to sin but you don’t want to sin?

Perhaps thats a misleading way to word it. Another way to word it is, you are opposed to sin as a category. You don’t want to sin. But, there’s something that you do want, that happens to constitute as sinful (e.g. want someone’s spouse, want to gossip about what your co-worker’s personal drama, want somebody to die because of a horrible thing he/she did to you in the past, etc).

What this is referring to is an unconscious conflict. Unconscious conflicts are pesky! In psychodynamic and psychoanalytic thought, these desires need to get worked through to be eliminated. During the period of working through them, there is always the risk of the unconscious desires getting acted out in real-life fantasy (which is a sin). With patience and perseverance, and the help of God’s grace, this type of conflict can be overcome. (Unconscious wishes in and of themselves are not sinful)

 

[Bookcat]

With sexual temptation…it is flight that is best.

 

[tlimon]

Sin must be a conscious effort. Thus, “subconscious sin” is an oxymoron.

 

[Usagi]

The Church reassures us that feelings and temptations are never sinful in and of themselves. They may represent our fallen, concupiscent nature, but unlike many Protestants we draw a clear distinction between the tendency to sin and actual acts (or even willing thoughts) of sin.

The sin of lust involves dwelling on, indulging in, and generally putting one’s will behind such temptations, not merely having them. Experiencing temptation and immediately fleeing from it is a way of practicing virtue, not vice.

The question of being inclined toward an act that would be sinful, but not actually wanting to commit a sin, is an interesting one. While it is possible for an act of will to be sinful even if it is not expressed in action, I doubt that an emotional wish that one recognizes as sinful and rejects would be accounted as a sin.

Obviously, it is important not to gloss over and rationalize our own sins, but it is equally important not to accuse ourselves of sin because of reactions that cannot absolutely be controlled by force of will. That way lies scrupulosity, and if you have been exposed to the threads on this board where sufferers of that affliction describe their internal world, it is not a pretty or comforting thing, far from the peace that God wishes us to have.

Usagi

 

[odile53]

We can’t help the subconscious, by definition it’s pretty much inaccessible. But there is great merit in fighting temptation with the graces we have been given via the sacraments and our diligence in prayer.

This isn’t the same thing as what psychiatry would call repression–it’s recognizing the impulse, identifying its potential for destruction, and consciously choosing to do something positive instead, in psychologic terms. The saints would call it “fighting temptation.” Freud would have called it sublimation, and by the way, that was the only positive defense mechanism he identified, all the rest (denial, rationalization, and the like) were considered negative ones.

So it seems that fighting temptation consciously is not only good for your soul, it’s good for your mental health as well.

 

[meltzerboy]

What this is referring to is an unconscious conflict. Unconscious conflicts are pesky! In psychodynamic and psychoanalytic thought, these desires need to get worked through to be eliminated. During the period of working through them, there is always the risk of the unconscious desires getting acted out in real-life fantasy (which is a sin). With patience and perseverance, and the help of God’s grace, this type of conflict can be overcome. (Unconscious wishes in and of themselves are not sinful)

Robert, I know you’re a psychologist, as I am. Therefore, you most likely are aware that, according to strict Freudian theory, these unconscious conflicts may be reduced, but the contents of the unconscious mind are not meant to be eliminated by means of psychoanalytic therapy. Rather, the goal is to discover how to make them part of the conscious mind and embrace them without experiencing guilt, shame, anger, or fear. In other words, negative unconscious emotions are not and cannot be destroyed, but they can be incorporated into the conscious mind. Whether one agrees or not, for Freud the only “sin” involved in having these feelings of lust is not understanding that they all originate in the unconscious mind and not learning how to accept them without shame, guilt, or fear.

 

[Bookcat]

Robert, I know you’re a psychologist, as I am. Therefore, you most likely are aware that, according to strict Freudian theory, these unconscious conflicts may be reduced, but the contents of the unconscious mind are not meant to be eliminated by means of psychoanalytic therapy. Rather, the goal is to discover how to make them part of the conscious mind and embrace them without experiencing guilt, shame, anger, or fear. In other words, negative unconscious emotions are not and cannot be destroyed, but they can be incorporated into the conscious mind. Whether one agrees or not, for Freud the only “sin” involved in having these feelings of lust is not understanding that they all originate in the unconscious mind and not learning how to accept them without shame, guilt, or fear.

Hence…another reason not to recommend Freud…

 

[meltzerboy]

We can’t help the subconscious, by definition it’s pretty much inaccessible. But there is great merit in fighting temptation with the graces we have been given via the sacraments and our diligence in prayer.

This isn’t the same thing as what psychiatry would call repression–it’s recognizing the impulse, identifying its potential for destruction, and consciously choosing to do something positive instead, in psychologic terms. The saints would call it “fighting temptation.” Freud would have called it sublimation, and by the way, that was the only positive defense mechanism he identified, all the rest (denial, rationalization, and the like) were considered negative ones.

So it seems that fighting temptation consciously is not only good for your soul, it’s good for your mental health as well.

All the unconscious ego defense mechanisms that Freud talked about are positive in that they help, temporarily, protect the ego from the stress caused by the id in its continuous battle with the superego. Sublimation is the one that may also benefit SOCIETY since it places one’s internal drives–sex and aggression–in the service of the external environment. However, it too is a temporary defense mechanism that, in time, will cease to function properly. Meanwhile, sublimation may cause psychological harm to the INDIVIDUAL by not permitting him to express his own needs. In the short run, it may be good for one’s mental health, as well as necessary for the smooth functioning of society; but in the long run, it is likely to harm one’s mental health.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Robert, I know you’re a psychologist, as I am. Therefore, you most likely are aware that, according to strict Freudian theory, these unconscious conflicts may be reduced, but the contents of the unconscious mind are not meant to be eliminated by means of psychoanalytic therapy. Rather, the goal is to discover how to make them part of the conscious mind and embrace them without experiencing guilt, shame, anger, or fear. In other words, negative unconscious emotions are not and cannot be destroyed, but they can be incorporated into the conscious mind. Whether one agrees or not, for Freud the only “sin” involved in having these feelings of lust is not understanding that they all originate in the unconscious mind and not learning how to accept them without shame, guilt, or fear.

What you say about bringing the unconscious into consciousness is true, but I’m also interjecting Catholic principles whereby these sinful wishes and desires must get worked through to the point they are no longer able to be acted out. Homosexuality might be a good example. The goal of Catholic teachings is that the homosexual desires are not to be accepted or in any way acted out. Instead, we must rely on the grace of God to overcome any and all sinful wishes and desires. Shame and guilt may occur when sinful wishes or desire are acted out, but this becomes another area of Catholic principles whereby the shame and guilt are eliminated through God’s forgiveness in the sacrament of reconciliation.

 

[Bookcat]

Hey…can we set aside the Freudian theory etc…it will take this tread off the tracks. The OP is coming here looking for Catholic Moral Theology answers…

Thanks