Is Taylor Marshall too traditional?

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Let me start by saying I am a fan of Taylor Marshall. I read his blog and listen to his podcast fairly regularly. I like the fact that he tries to educate the Catholic population on sacred tradition. Occasionally though I notice weird things- for example, in his recent podcast on Our Lady of Guadalupe he specifically names communists (which i understand) and Muslims as enemies of the Church. Now… I understand if he said communists and masons, but it seems odd when our current holy father tries to be a friend to Muslims and to say they are enemies of the Church. Also, he only really cites the Catechism of the Council of Trent when he cites the catechism- but not the current Catechism. That’s not completely bad per se, but it gives the impression that he may not think it is valid. Now I don’t know what he thinks as he hasn’t said. I just noticed these things. Any thoughts?

PS- I want to emphasize again that I like Marshall’s works, and to lose his voice in the church would be a disservice. I just want to know if I’m trippin’ or if other people notice this?
 
I would suggest that you take this up with Mr Marshall himself via email. I don’t think he is by the way. When things don’t go the way he seems to think they should, he excepts that he is wrong and falls into line. While I am not that traditional myself, not a fan of latin, I don’t think someone has gone overboard until they start to challenge the bishops or the Pope. The problem with taking a 16th century document and forcing it into a 21st century context it that it leads to erroneous thinking.
 
I don’t think the “new” catechism cancelled out the Catechism of the Council of Trent, for the teachings of the Church do not change. I believe the hesitancy of the pope (Benedict & Francis) to condemn Islam is not because it is now considered a friend, but out of prudence for our Catholic brethren in the middle east who would suffer the repercussions. I remember Benedict had some scathing words about the Muslims, but later apologized, and I believe, on a hunch, this is the reason.
 
No, I don’t think he is at all. I think he is just right.

However, send him an email or contact him via facebook or his website and ask him about his comments if they concern you.
 
If you have never read the Catechism of the Council of Trent I would suggest trying. In my opinion it is a lot easier to read and strait forward compared to the new. Nothing has changed since then, all the doctrine is the same. I’ve heard talking heads on the radio talk about how the new is so much easier to read. Not for this reader.
 
If I really thought he was in error I would contact him, but posting here is more to see if I was alone in my thoughts. Most likely 🙂
 
Enemies of the church. Keep your friends close, enemies closer. The Pope’s job is to extend the olive branch.
 
doe’s the truth change in five centuries ?? :confused:
No, but the tradition of the Church is living and breathing. It is not comprised of just a bunch of old things from hundreds of years ago, but is alive now. Of course, everything from the Council of Trent is still extremely important. But it always has to be interpreted in light of what the Church is saying right now.
 
doe’s the truth change in five centuries ?? :confused:
No but our understanding of it does. When the council of Trent was meeting, mankind was trying to come to grips with the idea that the earth wasn’t the center of the Universe. The threat posed my the Muslim Ottoman Turks during the council was greater than at anytime since.
 
The conversation has drifted away from the original question.

I believe that Dr. Marshall is usually right on the money. 👍
 
I don’t think the “new” catechism cancelled out the Catechism of the Council of Trent, for the teachings of the Church do not change. I believe the hesitancy of the pope (Benedict & Francis) to condemn Islam is not because it is now considered a friend, but out of prudence for our Catholic brethren in the middle east who would suffer the repercussions. I remember Benedict had some scathing words about the Muslims, but later apologized, and I believe, on a hunch, this is the reason.
This is incorrect. Vatican II specifically mentions Jews and Muslims in Nostra Aetate as brethren, because they are sons of Abraham as are we. They believe in the God of Abraham, as do we. The Church holds them and the Jewish people in special esteem and does not consider them her enemies.

Christians and Muslims have been enemies for political reasons. This has not changed in many countries. It is unfortunate. We must pray for peace and justice in those countries. The same has to be said of the Jews and Muslims.

The unfortunate situation here is that religions have been used to justify the antagonism from all parties. There has never been a shortage of Christians, Muslims or Jewish instigators who poison the waters with religious bigotry to achieve their distorted goals. The simple man and woman of faith, Jewish Muslim or Christian, tends to believe these so called “leaders, guardians, or protectors.” Those who do not believe and who challenge are usually persecuted by these alleged leaders.

Pope Benedict never made scathing comments about Muslims. This is what was spread around. Pope Benedict was delivering a lecture. At the time, he was pope, but he was speaking a professor, not in the name of the Church. During his lecture he quoted an ancient piece of writing that contained a single, but very ugly comment about Islam and Muslims. The comment stated that they were all criminals. I can’t recall how the sentence goes, because I have not read the book. I only read the sentence in Light of the World. The Holy Father did clarify why he quoted this writer and apologized if he had caused any offense to anyone.

He was being diplomatic in apologizing. This much is true. However, diplomacy should be a part of every Catholic’s behavior. We should not go about making enemies, but meeting people and befriending them. When something goes wrong, which will always happen in any human activity, we should be courageous enough to return to the scene and rectify. This is what Pope Benedict did.

There is another problem. We are the problem. We are duplicitous. Especially Latin Catholics. We claim that we are the faithful sons and daughters of the popes, but we take advantage of every opportunity to stick it to them by contradicting them or by ignoring them.

Taylor Marshal is a very brilliant man in some respects. But he is also a less than faithful son of the Church if he is making statements that contradict what the Council and the Holy See are saying. One cannot be with the Holy See and undermine it, contradict it, and even attempt to teach over it, yet continue to say that one is a faithful Catholic.

I have not read what Taylor Marshall has said about Muslims or Jews or anyone else. I have read some of his books and he contains errors in them. He brings to the table some Protestant notions. This is understandable. He comes from that Anglican Church. It is equally understandable that he is entitled to his opinion.

What is not understandable is for good Catholics to accept the opinion of any individual when that opinion contradicts the opinion of the Holy See.

Yes. yes, yes, you’re all going to tell me that not everything that the popes say is infallible. I’ve heard that before. I’ve been around the block many years. I have seen where that attitude has led us to. One starts tearing off one corner of the paper, because it’s not needed, then another, and another and another, before we know it, we have a papacy that is worthless. Why? Because there are new dogmas and no new moral laws. We no longer need pope with infallibility. We have what we needed in our catechisms. We need popes who are administrators. Let’s elect CEOs to the Chair of Peter. When they make administrative decisions, we can treat them as we do the CEO of Microsoft. We can reduce his sphere of influence according to our wishes. Whatever we don’t wish, we simply ignore, like a product that we leave on a shelf at a department store.

The pope is a CEO and the Church can become Macy’s.

I’m sure that what Saints Benedict, Albert, Augustine, Dominic, Francis of Assisi, Teresa of Avila, Ignatius of Loyola and Bonaventure all did when they found themselves in a Church where the papacy, hierarchy and institutions were fragile. They picked and chose what they wanted and they left the rest on the shelf. Not to worry, if the Holy See says that Muslims and Jews are not enemies of the Church, but we feel that opinion to be mistaken, we can leave it on a shelf and move on to find a opinion that fits our size, just like a pair of shoes.
 
Vatican II specifically mentions Jews and Muslims in Nostra Aetate as brethren, because they are sons of Abraham as are we. They believe in the God of Abraham, as do we. The Church holds them and the Jewish people in special esteem and does not consider them her enemies.
Yes. yes, yes, you’re all going to tell me that not everything that the popes say is infallible.
In support of what you’re saying, Brother, perhaps its worth pointing out to other readers here that, as I know you are aware, the Dogmatic Constitution* Lumen Gentium* (promulgated at the Second Vatican Council) contains the following statement in relation to Jews and Muslims:

16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.*

See vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

That, I am sure, unambiguously proves that the Church does not hold Muslims as a group to be amongst her enemies. And just to labour the point, as a dogmatic teaching this is to be held by the faithful both as infallibly taught and divinely revealed. That being so, Brother, I think the points you make can’t really be disputed. Unfortunately I don’t imagine that will stop some people from trying. 😦

For the record, I’ve never read Taylor Marshall, and if this is an indication of his accuracy in promoting Church teaching, I don’t think I’ll bother. :eek:

Kind regards,
Withburga
 
In support of what you’re saying, Brother, perhaps its worth pointing out to other readers here that, as I know you are aware, the Dogmatic Constitution* Lumen Gentium* (promulgated at the Second Vatican Council) contains the following statement in relation to Jews and Muslims:

16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.*

See vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

That, I am sure, unambiguously proves that the Church does not hold Muslims as a group to be amongst her enemies. And just to labour the point, as a dogmatic teaching this is to be held by the faithful both as infallibly taught and divinely revealed. That being so, Brother, I think the points you make can’t really be disputed. Unfortunately I don’t imagine that will stop some people from trying. 😦

For the record, I’ve never read Taylor Marshall, and if this is an indication of his accuracy in promoting Church teaching, I don’t think I’ll bother. :eek:

Kind regards,
Withburga
Thank you for your supportive post. As far as Taylor Marshall’s writing is concerned, he is not to be completely discarded. However, one who reads him must know a little theology and ecclesiology. Taylor has an Anglican background. I have no idea how much education he has in Catholic studies. I can’t say that he has none.

That being said, I have found mistakes in some of the book The Crucified Rabbi. However, were I to create a pie chart, I could say that he makes 100 points, but two are in error. That’s not a bad score as long as one can pick up the two mistaken points.

He certainly does not understand the Christian, Jewish and Muslim relationship; nor does he explain martyrdom correctly. I found that his explanation of martyrdom was very narrow. Edith Stein and Maximilian Kolbe would not fit into his explanation of martyrdom. He would not accommodate Edith in there, because she was killed for being Jewish not Catholic. He would not accommodate Maximilian, because he volunteered to take the place of another out of compassion. He was not forced to do so. He fails to understand that dying for one’s faith sometimes is a moral imperative. It’s not always as simple as “deny your faith or your dead.” In Maximilian’s case, he died because of a moral imperative. Edith Stein was also a martyr. It is true that she was martyred because she was Jewish. But it is also true that she is an excellent model of the fulfillment of the Covenant with Israel. She did not break with Judaism. She followed it to its logical conclusion, conforming to Christ in all things, even death on a cross.

Marshall’s explanation of martyrdom does not include those who die prematurely because of their relationship with Christ and his people. By dying prematurely, I mean those whose lives are taken from them rather than dying of natural causes.
 
No, he’s not too traditional. What does that mean anyway? Read about the Victory of Lepanto or something. The approved apparition of Our Lady of Good Success would be good to read as it has lots of nice things to know.

Also, no Truth doesn’t change in five centuries, ten centuries, or a hundred centuries. Truth never changes. God never changes, I think I read that in the Bible somewhere. :rolleyes:
 
This is incorrect. Vatican II specifically mentions Jews and Muslims in Nostra Aetate as brethren, because they are sons of Abraham as are we. They believe in the God of Abraham, as do we. The Church holds them and the Jewish people in special esteem and does not consider them her enemies.

Christians and Muslims have been enemies for political reasons. This has not changed in many countries. It is unfortunate. We must pray for peace and justice in those countries. The same has to be said of the Jews and Muslims.

The unfortunate situation here is that religions have been used to justify the antagonism from all parties. There has never been a shortage of Christians, Muslims or Jewish instigators who poison the waters with religious bigotry to achieve their distorted goals. The simple man and woman of faith, Jewish Muslim or Christian, tends to believe these so called “leaders, guardians, or protectors.” Those who do not believe and who challenge are usually persecuted by these alleged leaders.

Pope Benedict never made scathing comments about Muslims. This is what was spread around. Pope Benedict was delivering a lecture. At the time, he was pope, but he was speaking a professor, not in the name of the Church. During his lecture he quoted an ancient piece of writing that contained a single, but very ugly comment about Islam and Muslims. The comment stated that they were all criminals. I can’t recall how the sentence goes, because I have not read the book. I only read the sentence in Light of the World. The Holy Father did clarify why he quoted this writer and apologized if he had caused any offense to anyone.

He was being diplomatic in apologizing. This much is true. However, diplomacy should be a part of every Catholic’s behavior. We should not go about making enemies, but meeting people and befriending them. When something goes wrong, which will always happen in any human activity, we should be courageous enough to return to the scene and rectify. This is what Pope Benedict did.

There is another problem. We are the problem. We are duplicitous. Especially Latin Catholics. We claim that we are the faithful sons and daughters of the popes, but we take advantage of every opportunity to stick it to them by contradicting them or by ignoring them.

Taylor Marshal is a very brilliant man in some respects. But he is also a less than faithful son of the Church if he is making statements that contradict what the Council and the Holy See are saying. One cannot be with the Holy See and undermine it, contradict it, and even attempt to teach over it, yet continue to say that one is a faithful Catholic.

I have not read what Taylor Marshall has said about Muslims or Jews or anyone else. I have read some of his books and he contains errors in them. He brings to the table some Protestant notions. This is understandable. He comes from that Anglican Church. It is equally understandable that he is entitled to his opinion.

What is not understandable is for good Catholics to accept the opinion of any individual when that opinion contradicts the opinion of the Holy See.

Yes. yes, yes, you’re all going to tell me that not everything that the popes say is infallible. I’ve heard that before. I’ve been around the block many years. I have seen where that attitude has led us to. One starts tearing off one corner of the paper, because it’s not needed, then another, and another and another, before we know it, we have a papacy that is worthless. Why? Because there are new dogmas and no new moral laws. We no longer need pope with infallibility. We have what we needed in our catechisms. We need popes who are administrators. Let’s elect CEOs to the Chair of Peter. When they make administrative decisions, we can treat them as we do the CEO of Microsoft. We can reduce his sphere of influence according to our wishes. Whatever we don’t wish, we simply ignore, like a product that we leave on a shelf at a department store.

The pope is a CEO and the Church can become Macy’s.

I’m sure that what Saints Benedict, Albert, Augustine, Dominic, Francis of Assisi, Teresa of Avila, Ignatius of Loyola and Bonaventure all did when they found themselves in a Church where the papacy, hierarchy and institutions were fragile. They picked and chose what they wanted and they left the rest on the shelf. Not to worry, if the Holy See says that Muslims and Jews are not enemies of the Church, but we feel that opinion to be mistaken, we can leave it on a shelf and move on to find a opinion that fits our size, just like a pair of shoes.
Brother, I appreciate your take on this. You basically affirmed my thoughts. I still like Mr. Marshall’s topics of discussion so I do wish to continue to read/ listen to him. Yet, like all things caution must be taken.
 
No, he’s not too traditional. What does that mean anyway
Well in the way I am using it here, I would say it is holding a political view of Catholicism similar to that of the Crusades. To be honest, that is not the Church as it is today. The Church realizes today that it only has one enemy- Satan. All others may freely join him in his battle of the Church, yet the Church does not view them as THE enemy. Humans that do the bidding of the enemy are still save-able, and we must fight the enemy for their soul.
 
Brother, I appreciate your take on this. You basically affirmed my thoughts. I still like Mr. Marshall’s topics of discussion so I do wish to continue to read/ listen to him. Yet, like all things caution must be taken.
I like Marshall’s work. One of my favorite books on his list is the Crucified Rabbi. As I said above, he makes two mistakes. Big deal! I know that they are mistakes and I just read past them and go on to the good stuff. He definitely has a lot of good stuff in that book.
Well in the way I am using it here, I would say it is holding a political view of Catholicism similar to that of the Crusades. To be honest, that is not the Church as it is today. The Church realizes today that it only has one enemy- Satan. All others may freely join him in his battle of the Church, yet the Church does not view them as THE enemy. Humans that do the bidding of the enemy are still save-able, and we must fight the enemy for their soul.
I think that it’s important to remember that the Crusades were a complex issue. The Muslims had political and economic reasons for invading Europe. Not all of their reasons had to do with the salvation of souls and the greater glory and honor of Allah. This may have been the battle cry, but it was not the truth. The Ottoman Empire was a prize. Control of the Mediterranean was another prize. These were important to the Europeans as they were to the North Africans and the Middle East. People made up any excuse to go to war for these prizes.

The common man in Europe had every reason to fear an invasion. To him, the Muslim was the enemy. God got sucked into the equation by human enterprise, not divine choice. The easiest way to get the simple man to fight your war is to appeal to his superstitions, because superstitions are usually rooted in fear. Muslims, Christians and Jews all took advantage of the simple man’s fears.

To resurrect the language of the Crusades today is wrong. The situation is not the same. The players involved are not the same. The stakes are higher. Nuclear war is not something to be ignored. We know that it is unethical to deceive the common man into war. The people of the Middle Ages did not think this way. In their mind, they were not deceiving by instilling fear. Rulers and bishops believed that it was their divine mission to think and make choices for the masses. Let us remember that half of the world has always been female and that females of the Middle Ages did not have brains. Children didn’t have brains either. Neither did the illiterate serfs, nor indentured servants. The task of thinking for the whole of society is vested in a few. This is not the case today. The approach of the Middle Ages does not apply.
 
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