Is the Bible a telephone game?

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ArchAngelMiko

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A friend posted this on facebook, How should I respond?

"Y’know, when the Bible was written,
-and then re-written,
then edited and re-edited,
and then translated from dead languages,
and then re-re-translated,
and then re-edited,
and then re-re-re edited,
and then re-translated,
and then given to kings to take their favourite parts out,
and then re-edited,
and then re-translated,
and then re-edited,
and then given to the pope for him to approve,
and then re-re- translated,
the re-re-written,
re-re-edited,
re-translated,
and re-edited again,
all based on stories that were told orally 30-90 years after they happened,
to people who didn’t know how to write-

I guess the Bible is literally the worlds oldest
game of telephone."
 
You should respond that this is a gross oversimplification and mischaracterization of a significant portion of western history and that the person making such a bold claim needs to be prepared to back up every line of that. It is also highly uncharitable and demeaning.

-ACEGC
 
The main problem here, is that I believe that your friend has probably spent very little time in serious thought about this. I think that the simplest, most direct route to really cause someone like this to actually think, is to go to Sinai.

Let’s assume, then, that bible as a whole is really just a large collection of the final product of an evolving mythology. What does your friend think is the best, most rational, and most reasonable way to explain the phenomenon of the Sinai revelation? How did the Hebrew culture write such a lie, and actually get all of its society to not only believe it, but to accept a system of religion based upon it?

To refresh his memory, quote from Deuteronomy chapter 4:

9 Only be careful, and watch yourselves closely so that you do not forget the things your eyes have seen or let them fade from your heart as long as you live. Teach them to your children and to their children after them. 10 ** Remember the day you stood before the LORD your God at Horeb**, when he said to me, “Assemble the people before me to hear my words so that they may learn to revere me as long as they live in the land and may teach them to their children.” 11 You came near and stood at the foot of the mountain while it blazed with fire to the very heavens, with black clouds and deep darkness. 12 Then the LORD spoke to you out of the fire. You **heard **the sound of words but saw no form; there was only a voice. 13 He declared to you his covenant, the Ten Commandments, which he commanded you to follow and then wrote them on two stone tablets.

Amongst other places in the bible, this is the only record we have anywhere in any religion which claims that an entire nation of people literally heard a deity speak. Here, and in other references in Scripture, this descending of God to Sinai is used as evidence to support the acceptance of God’s law.

Continue in the chapter:

32 Ask now about the former days, long before your time, from the day God created human beings on the earth; ask from one end of the heavens to the other. Has anything so great as this ever happened, or has anything like it ever been heard of? 33 Has any other people heard the voice of Goda] speaking out of fire, as you have, and lived? 34 Has any god ever tried to take for himself one nation out of another nation, by testings, by signs and wonders, by war, by a mighty hand and an outstretched arm, or by great and awesome deeds, like all the things the LORD your God did for you in Egypt before your very eyes? 35 You were shown these things so that you might know that the LORD is God; besides him there is no other. 36 From heaven he made you hear his voice to discipline you. On earth he showed you his great fire, and you heard his words from out of the fire. 37 Because he loved your ancestors and chose their descendants after them, he brought you out of Egypt by his Presence and his great strength, 38 to drive out before you nations greater and stronger than you and to bring you into their land to give it to you for your inheritance, as it is today.

Your friends task, then, should be to provide a natural explanation for how this type of claim has been made, and how this lie was started. There’s three main courses he would take, all of which have problems, none of which are natural explanations. (We’ll define “natural” as something which can happen more than one time, something which is repeatable.)

These three courses are:

(i) Present lie; the originators of this lie simply made the claim – you just now saw God! – and the hearers stupidly believed it. They then wrote it down for future generations.

(ii) Past lie; some group of people made the claim that they discovered these writings (even though they had just finished writing them), that these writings had been lost, and the Hebrews simply believed them and the writings.

(iii) Future lie; the people making the claim wrote down things which they told their present generation would one day come to pass, and the generation believed them.

The main problem, is that none of these explanations are natural. You must absolutely assume that such explanations occurred and are valid, despite the fact that they would be an example of the only time in human history where such a thing has happened, and therefore not natural. Since such an explanation is based on a singularity, the chances of them occurring are no greater than the supernatural explanation. If you’d like details on all of this, please contact me.
 
ArchAngelMiko said:
A friend posted this on facebook, How should I respond?

"Y’know, when the Bible was written,
-and then re-written,
then edited and re-edited,
and then translated from dead languages,
and then re-re-translated,
and then re-edited,
and then re-re-re edited,
and then re-translated,
and then given to kings to take their favourite parts out,
and then re-edited,
and then re-translated,
and then re-edited,
and then given to the pope for him to approve,
and then re-re- translated,
the re-re-written,
re-re-edited,
re-translated,
and re-edited again,
all based on stories that were told orally 30-90 years after they happened,
to people who didn’t know how to write-

I guess the Bible is literally the worlds oldest
game of telephone."
Click to expand...
IF you look at the Dead Sea Scrolls that pre-date Christ, therefore much of his edited/re-edited/given to the pope etc diatribe, they contain most of the books of the current old testament and do not differ in any significant way from what we currently have as modern versions. SO, you either have to believe that all that it is incredibly well-preserved and therefore trustworthy OR a deity stepped in to ensure that the translations/re-translations ended up matching the original text despite human intervention. Either way, it should leave him/her thinking.
 
For such a superficial comment, your friend deserves the “short” answer: the telephone game and the bible have one great difference–the first is the work of man, the second, the work of God;)
 
ArchAngelMiko said:
A friend posted this on facebook, How should I respond?

"Y’know, when the Bible was written,
-and then re-written,
then edited and re-edited,
and then translated from dead languages,
and then re-re-translated,
and then re-edited,
and then re-re-re edited,
and then re-translated,
and then given to kings to take their favourite parts out,
and then re-edited,
and then re-translated,
and then re-edited,
and then given to the pope for him to approve,
and then re-re- translated,
the re-re-written,
re-re-edited,
re-translated,
and re-edited again,
all based on stories that were told orally 30-90 years after they happened,
to people who didn’t know how to write-

I guess the Bible is literally the worlds oldest
game of telephone."
Click to expand...
Response:
Perhaps you should try some fact-checking before you re-re-regurgitate (illiterately) such completely contrived lies.
Just because you so clearly don’t bother to get your facts straight and couldn’t care less, don’t suppose that the rest of the world operated that way.

There were schools of rabbinic study where students spent their lives learning the exact scripture through a complicated extended study of interaction with instructors whose job it was to make sure the students got “it” exactly correct.

Thousands of people witnessed Jesus and his resurrection. They were still around when the Gospels were written. That’s how the false gospels were so easy to spot. Did you know there were/are over 250 documents claiming Apostolic Authority?

If the Bible were contrived to create a religion to control the masses,
-Why are women the first witnesses to the resurrection?
-Why are the Gospels slightly different, it would have been easy to “fix” those seeming “discrepancies”, yes?
-Why did the first few centuries of Christians mostly have to die for their “game of telephone”?
-You may think so little of yourself, but do you really think so little of billions of people for thousands of years?
Disclaimer: I *AM *cranky. … This person will likely unfriend you. 👍 (thanks for the chance to vent a tiny bit).
 
Past lie; some group of people made the claim that they discovered these writings (even though they had just finished writing them), that these writings had been lost, and the Hebrews simply believed them and the writings.
Click to expand...
This seems possible. After all there are Psalms in the Old Testament that claim David is the writer when it clearly cannot be (Writing about the woe of being Exiled in Babylon.) Now which is more believable that David had prophetic vision to know Judea would fall or that the Hebrews decided to write stories in their Exile and then just claim David was the one who wrote it so it is remembered in history.
 
CHRISTINE77 said:
I’d “unfriend” this “friend”!
Click to expand...
Probably one of the worst approaches you could possibly take to the situation. How do you ever witness to someone if you refuse to associate with them for challenging your beliefs? I’m glad Jesus didn’t “unfriend” the prostitutes and the leapors. We’re called to be in the world but not of the world. Rejoice at the opportunity to witness to non believers that God has put in front of you. If you only stay in your comfortable little Catholic bubble constantly surrounded by people who always agree with you how will you be challenged? How will you grow? Something to think about

To the original poster, it’s cool to post a reply to this and everything but your ultimate goal here isn’t to win an argument, it’s to acurately defend the faith and do whatever you can to minister to this friend. Don’t put too much pressure on yourself though, Real ministry though doesn’t happen through facebook debate. The thing about christianity is that you can know everything there is to know about why your faith is true and you can know all the argumeents but not be a Christian. Arguments don’t change hearts, and untill someone comes to a place where they truly need God then the arguments only go so far. My advice to you man, is that your LIFE is a witness. yes, argue and defend the faith as we are called to do in scripture when the time is appropriate. But do it with grace and humility, if someone can truly see Christ in your life it’s worth more than any amount of apologetics. Because the the worlds best argument that attacks the mind doesn’t save a soul because it’s a heart change that we should be seeking after.
 
Your friend’s problem is that he assumes that the Church has been as sloppy with its biblical scholarship as he has been with his own. He clearly has no understanding of the painstaking proces involved in selection of books, translation, and editing. People who have never had dedication to a belief have trouble understanding the remarkable motivation that comes with it.
 
jbarbaretta said:
IF you look at the Dead Sea Scrolls that pre-date Christ, therefore much of his edited/re-edited/given to the pope etc diatribe, they contain most of the books of the current old testament and do not differ in any significant way from what we currently have as modern versions. SO, you either have to believe that all that it is incredibly well-preserved and therefore trustworthy OR a deity stepped in to ensure that the translations/re-translations ended up matching the original text despite human intervention. Either way, it should leave him/her thinking.
Click to expand...
exactly when they compared the scroll of Isaiah to our modern bibles, they found the translation spot on except for some small differences which should be expected. The early church and scribes were very careful to copy the books
 
ArchAngelMiko said:
A friend posted this on facebook, How should I respond?

"Y’know, when the Bible was written,
-and then re-written,
then edited and re-edited,
and then translated from dead languages,
and then re-re-translated,
and then re-edited,
and then re-re-re edited,
and then re-translated,
and then given to kings to take their favourite parts out,
and then re-edited,
and then re-translated,
and then re-edited,
and then given to the pope for him to approve,
and then re-re- translated,
the re-re-written,
re-re-edited,
re-translated,
and re-edited again,
all based on stories that were told orally 30-90 years after they happened,
to people who didn’t know how to write-

I guess the Bible is literally the worlds oldest
game of telephone."
Click to expand...
Please tell your friend to at least try and present his rant/“witty” comment in some sort of correct/logical order. The “dead languages” appears too early in his list, the king part should be a little further to the end [also, if he includes the pope comment, he needs to either remove one of the two or create a side branch], and the pope part should be mentioned for every “rewritten/edited/translated” comment [except of course the ones that fall under the king comment]. He should also probably try to incorporate some “witty” comments concerning the OT since it does make up a rather sizeable part of the Bible. I mean come on, only a moron would mock half a book.
 
Also, Your tell your friend he/she is making his/her grammer teacher cry.

“You know, when the Bible was written, -and then…- I guess the Bible is literally the world’s oldest game of telephone.”
 
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