Is the Catholicism in LOTR Over Hyped?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Pound_Coolish
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
P

Pound_Coolish

Guest
Gandalf died, or so people insist. Imagine my surprise then, to read LOTR and find no death scene involving Gandalf. He falls with the Balrog (we assume he dies.) He shows up again much later to the rest of the fellowship in a new form. He explains his absence. He never mentions, “Oh, by the way, I died.” Gimli never says, “By jove, so you died but now you’re alive. That’s some trick.” If you want to take away the impression Gandalf died and resurrected, that’s fine. If you want to imagine Gandalf is a Christ figure based on that impression, now you’re stretching.

This isn’t to say there are no Catholic themes in the books. There are. But people seem a bit overeager about them.

When asked about lembas, for instance, Tolkien said they have “what might hesitatingly be called a religious quality” about them. Yet, for many readers, the Catholic themes are one of the best, if not the best things about the books. Tolkien’s remarks on the subject don’t really seem to encourage this.

Authors write books upon books on these themes. And apparently people eat them up because more come about about every year. Are we blowing them out of the proportion? And is it possible some of these themes aren’t even there?
 
Ahhh LOTR one of my fave topics! LOVE the book and movies. Which are you talking about, that will give me a reference. I’m assuming the book.
 
BTW - Peter Kreefts “Christian Themes of LOTR” is FABULOUS!! It’s on Youtube. But I agree with you, sometimes people can see things in there, that may or may not be consciously intended by the author, but that’s the beauty of reading and books, movies not as much.
 
I consider LOTR to be an excellent story, by a Catholic writer. I think that his Catholicism is bound to show through, but Tookein himself said he was only trying to tell a good story, not to write a particularly Catholic story, or an analogy (mostly to WW2), or anything like that

However, there is something about stories… in order to be good and believable and not jolt the reader, they need to adhere to certain realities, which seems a bit ironic. You can do a lot with the situation in which characters find themselves–Shelley can write Frankenstein and Clarke 2001–but you can’t stretch characters and have them act unhuman, even if they are trees.

So stories need to adhere to reality, and Catholicism is the most complete exposition of reality, which means that one can find Catholic themes in any good story, which explains to me why movies are often so anti-thetical to the values expressed by the creators of the movies.

ETA: So I think Tolkein’s Catholicism more helps the stories to be better than average rather than making them altogetger different.
 
The explanation of what happened after Gandalf fought the Balrog from the depths of Moria to the mountain tops where the demon was defeated is a bit subjective. Certainly when he “came back” his status in the Isitari was elevated from grey to white, by the White council. Sauruman’s staff was broken by Gandalf [not shown in the movie] and thus thrown out of the order when he refused to surrender his staff to him.

Sauruman had once said the last ship going to the Gray Heavens was a “ship of ghosts” suggesting that it was a “one way trip.” Frodo, during their trip through the mines of Moria that it was a pity that Bilbo never slayed Gollum when he had the chance.

Gandalf: Pity? It was pity that stayed Bilbo’s hand. Many that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. Even the very wise cannot see all ends. My heart tells me that Gollum has some part to play yet, for good or ill before this is over. The pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many.

And so it did. Frodo would not have been able to complete his quest without Gollum.

Sauron was the fallen angel. Saruman was the traitor. They were not from Middle Earth and as soon as the Council had completed their mission, they left Middle Earth. “Now comes the days of Men!” Gandalf proclaimed after crowning Aragorn, Isildur’s heir to the thrown of Gondor.

There are many parallels between Christianity and The Lord of the Rings, barring the Savior, the King of Kings, but it stands as a great model for the classic struggle between good and evil and association of power and corruption. No man could ever safely wield the one ring and not be corrupted, not even Frodo. But Frodo received help from the most unlikely of places, Gollum, who had been spared many time by those fighting for good, who were not wiling to sacrifice their principals, the biggest lesson of all in The Lord of the Rings.

We must never give in to evil, within us or outside of us, both are of equal measure. As men, were weak but with spiritual help and tools i.e. Christ the King, Mary Mother of God, the rosary, prayer, confession, forgiveness, and most of all, the Eucharist, we can obtain the inheritance that God has offered us. :knight1:
 
casey_cates said:
Ahhh LOTR one of my fave topics! LOVE the book and movies. Which are you talking about, that will give me a reference. I’m assuming the book.
Click to expand...
The books, correct. The movies actually show what Gandalf describes to Legolas and Gimli, making it plain he probably didn’t die. So I imagine fewer people come away from the movies with the impression Gandalf was once deceased. And yes, fabulous books, among the best ever. 🙂
However, there is something about stories… in order to be good and believable and not jolt the reader, they need to adhere to certain realities, which seems a bit ironic. You can do a lot with the situation in which characters find themselves–Shelley can write Frankenstein and Clarke 2001–but you can’t stretch characters and have them act unhuman, even if they are trees.
Click to expand...
So stories need to adhere to reality, and Catholicism is the most complete exposition of reality, which means that one can find Catholic themes in any good story, which explains to me why movies are often so anti-thetical to the values expressed by the creators of the movies.
Click to expand...
Well put.
 
Tolkien did say that his books were fundamentally Catholic in a letter. “The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work,” he wrote, “unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like “religion”, to cults or practices, in the Imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism” (Letter 142). So there is good reason to find Christian Elements in LOTR (h/t EWTN)

Fr. Barron talks about the images of Priest (Frodo), Prophet (Gandalf) and King (Aragorn) in the story.

Peter Kreeft talks about how at first glimpse we want to see Frodo as the hero (the guy we relate to, whose place we put ourselves in) of the story but we are then humbled as we realize Frodo, like the others, only has a part to play. After following him all this time, our heart falls to find, at the end, he fails. Gollum who we (like Sam) see as the villain actually is vital to the mission at hand. Frodo says, “Let us forgive Gollum. But for him Sam I could not have destroyed the ring.” So who is the true hero?

Gandalf clues you in to this in Moria when he tells Frodo that there are other forces at work besides evil. So while, in the story, you never see God. He is always at work behind the scenes to bring about the good in the end of the story.

I’ll have to revisit Tolkien’s version of events with the Balrog but in the movie, it is very clear to me that Gandalf does die. He describes death to Pippin. You see him dead and he’ says “I felt life in me again,” At which time he resumes breathing. And he says he has been sent back.
 
LOTR played an important role in my conversion. I was rereading it after many years, and found myself incredibly moved as Frodo and Sam neared Mount Doom. Onward they climbed, knowing they were going to die but continuing on anyway, for love of their friends, their homes, their world. Frodo’s commitment to doing his duty despite grave danger and probable death…changed me somehow. It helped me to eventually say Yes to faith and to the Lord.

Quite Catholic, in my opinion.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top