Is the Church Jesus started necessary for union with God?

[SteveVH]

When one studies Sacred Scripture, the Gospels, in particular, it becomes abundantly evident that Jesus did nothing without purpose. He didn’t just kill time and make off-handed remarks or engage in some meaningles task. I maintain that if Jesus started a church, then that church is necessary for union with God. Why would He possibly start a church if it didn’t matter?

I would like to make something very clear here. I am in no way saying or implying that those in the Catholic Church are in any way better people, nor are non-Catholics destined to eternal damnation. However, all non-Catholic Christian faiths are in imperfect communion with the Church that Jesus founded, that being the Catholic Church.

The Church is not just an institution, guiding people toward salvation. The Church is, in reality, salvation itself. Jesus abides in His Church through the sacraments, most especially the Holy Eucharist. His Church is to continue the work that He did while He was on earth. It is to communicate the divine offices of priest, prophet and king. The Church is the union of God with man in Jesus Christ present in the Eucharist. To be apart from the Eucharist is to be apart from union with God.

The fact that all non-Catholic Christian faiths are in imperfect communion with the Catholic Church does not mean that they do not have a “communion”, it is a real communion, but one that is lacking something, and in some cases many things.

I am interested in other’s opinions about the role of the Church in salvation.

Thanks

 

[Wesley7]

Yes

If you’re Catholic you attend Mass

If you’re Orthodox you attend Divine Liturgy

If you don’t have a church you say prayers at home

 

[Wesley7]

I was taught the church is the general assembly where believers unite for fellowship

 

[SteveVH]

I agree with you concerning both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, but what exactly do you think of the one without a church? I had a man tell me that he would pray at home and have his own communion by making it out of sandwich bread. He didn’t need no stink’n church.

 

[SteveVH]

I was taught the church is the general assembly where believers unite for fellowship

Wow, you edited that quickly

Is it just a gathering place then, or is it necessary for salvation?

 

[Araninski]

I don’t think we aren’t in full communion, we are in full communion just that there are disagreements, in the bible we can see how there were disagreements between different Christians but that didn’t meant they weren’t in perfect communion, they just disagreed.

36Some time later Paul said to Barnabas, “Let us go back and visit the brothers in all the towns where we preached the word of the Lord and see how they are doing.” 37Barnabas wanted to take John, also called Mark, with them, 38but Paul did not think it wise to take him, because he had deserted them in Pamphylia and had not continued with them in the work. 39They had such a sharp disagreement that they parted company. Barnabas took Mark and sailed for Cyprus, 40but Paul chose Silas and left, commended by the brothers to the grace of the Lord. 41He went through Syria and Cilicia, strengthening the churches.

Also when Paul and Peter disagreed.

God bless you.

 

[Wesley7]

First you need to demonstrate how the Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ

 

[SteveVH]

I don’t think we aren’t in full communion, we are in full communion just that there are disagreements, in the bible we can see how there were disagreements between different Christians but that didn’t meant they weren’t in perfect communion, they just disagreed.

36Some time later Paul said to Barnabas, “Let us go back and visit the brothers in all the towns where we preached the word of the Lord and see how they are doing.” 37Barnabas wanted to take John, also called Mark, with them, 38but Paul did not think it wise to take him, because he had deserted them in Pamphylia and had not continued with them in the work. 39They had such a sharp disagreement that they parted company. Barnabas took Mark and sailed for Cyprus, 40but Paul chose Silas and left, commended by the brothers to the grace of the Lord. 41He went through Syria and Cilicia, strengthening the churches.

Also when Paul and Peter disagreed.

God bless you.

Thank you for your blessing. This is difficult because I don’t know what you believe. This is really my point. You have identified yourself as “Christian”, yet I cannot, through that definition, determine exactly what you believe.

Yes, Peter and Paul disagreed, yet it was settled once Peter spoke at the Council of Jerusalem. They did not part ways and start their own churches. And yes, Paul’s epistles are filled with criticism toward some of the churches and he was all about staightening them out. But they did not form their own churches. There are arguments within the Catholic Church today, but they are settled and the Church remains one.

Do you believe in the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist? Do you believe in the communion of saints? When one rejects the Church that Jesus founded in favor of their own brand of Christianity how do you say that they are in full communion?

God bless you also.

 

[SteveVH]

First you need to demonstrate how the Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ

“…But who do you say that I am? Simon Peter said in reply, You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God. Jesus said to him in reply, 'Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flessh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keyes to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” (Mt 16:15-19)

From this point the Catholic Church can provide an unbroken line of succession to our present Pope, Benedict VI. We also recognize the line of apostolic succession present in the Orthodox Church, however I fear that the Catholic Church is more eager to unify than is the Orthodox. I certainly consider you brothers and sisters of the true faith.

 

[Wesley7]

I think Catholic teaching goes like this - through its visible institution the church is united to the Savior Jesus Christ through faith and doctrine.

 

[Wesley7]

Christians are united to the Savior Jesus Christ who is the Head of the body. (See Ephesians)

 

[Wesley7]

I looked up Ephesians 1.22 It says that Jesus Christ is the Head of the Church - And us believers are united to Him

 

[chaunceygardner]

When one studies Sacred Scripture, the Gospels, in particular, it becomes abundantly evident that Jesus did nothing without purpose. He didn’t just kill time and make off-handed remarks or engage in some meaningles task. I maintain that if Jesus started a church, then that church is necessary for union with God. Why would He possibly start a church if it didn’t matter?

I would like to make something very clear here. I am in no way saying or implying that those in the Catholic Church are in any way better people, nor are non-Catholics destined to eternal damnation. However, all non-Catholic Christian faiths are in imperfect communion with the Church that Jesus founded, that being the Catholic Church.

The Church is not just an institution, guiding people toward salvation. The Church is, in reality, salvation itself. Jesus abides in His Church through the sacraments, most especially the Holy Eucharist. His Church is to continue the work that He did while He was on earth. It is to communicate the divine offices of priest, prophet and king. The Church is the union of God with man in Jesus Christ present in the Eucharist. To be apart from the Eucharist is to be apart from union with God.

The fact that all non-Catholic Christian faiths are in imperfect communion with the Catholic Church does not mean that they do not have a “communion”, it is a real communion, but one that is lacking something, and in some cases many things.

I am interested in other’s opinions about the role of the Church in salvation.

Thanks

You say that “the Church is, in reality, salvation itself.” That sounds like the Church is at least equal to, if not greater than, Jesus and God the Father. That if we focus on the Church over everything else, we can be saved. That sounds like putting our faith in the finger pointing toward God rather than in God itself. One could say that the Church represents God on this earth, but I am not trying to attain Earth, I am trying to attain Heaven.

To say that the work of the Church “is to communicate the divine offices of priest, prophet and king” is to limit the mission of the Church, and perhaps even leave out its most important role, to “make disciples of all nations (peoples)”. What “divine offices” did Jesus create? How does the mission you give the Church mesh with the command to love God and one another? Will salvation be based on how well we (and the Church) performed certain rituals and rubrics, or how well we (and the Church) obeyed His fundamental commandments?

God does abide in the Church and in the Sacraments, but that is also a limited view. Jesus clearly tells us that God abides in all of us, and God in us is no less important than God in the Church or in the Eucharist.

I would answer your friend who says one can pray at home by agreeing and in fact saying that one SHOULD pray at home. But the Church that Jesus gave us (and the church that Jesus was raised in) is a communal Church. It is not about each of us seeking salvation individually, for that distorts the Gospel message. It is about seeking salvation as a people, as a community, as a parish, as a family. That means gathering together for prayer, for sharing the Eucharist, for supporting, elevating, and loving one another. It also means incorporating the Gospel into our daily lives and bringing it to others.

Whether another church or person is in “real” or “perfect” communion with the Catholic Church is not that important. Rather, it is important to be in communion with God. A “holier than thou” attitude, whether in a person or in a church, makes one ripe for a great fall. Jesus preached humility and that the greatest among us should be the servant of the least.

To answer your question, consider what Jesus told us was necessary for true union with God. Did He talk about belonging to a church? Or did He tell us that we should love God and our neighbor totally and without condition? Did He say that a church with “divine offices” was the only true church, or did He say that where two or more were gathered in His name, He would be amongst them?

You are correct that Jesus “did nothing without purpose”, but we perhaps disagree on what that purpose was.

 

[Araninski]

The problem here is that we aren’t a different Church , we are the same Church, just that we disagree in some things.

Everyone who does what Jesus commanded, that one is from the Church.

The denominations that go against what the bible says ( ex: allowing gay marriage, abortion, etc) those aren’t in communion with the Church, because they aren’t in communion with Christ.

BTW most of my beliefs can somehow compare with the Assemblies of God denomination from Pentecostalism.

God bless you.

 

[SteveVH]

You say that “the Church is, in reality, salvation itself.” That sounds like the Church is at least equal to, if not greater than, Jesus and God the Father. That if we focus on the Church over everything else, we can be saved. That sounds like putting our faith in the finger pointing toward God rather than in God itself. One could say that the Church represents God on this earth, but I am not trying to attain Earth, I am trying to attain Heaven.

No, what I am saying is that the Church is Christ’s abiding presence on this earth. He is the Head, we are the Body. Remember, it was Christ who started the Church, not man. That is my point. We are saved through and in His Church. Not quite sure how you arrive at the conclusion that one is trying to attain earth rather than heaven by belonging to the Church He started.

To say that the work of the Church “is to communicate the divine offices of priest, prophet and king” is to limit the mission of the Church, and perhaps even leave out its most important role, to “make disciples of all nations (peoples)”. What “divine offices” did Jesus create? How does the mission you give the Church mesh with the command to love God and one another? Will salvation be based on how well we (and the Church) performed certain rituals and rubrics, or how well we (and the Church) obeyed His fundamental commandments?

Yes, it goes without saying that the Church’s primary mission and command was to “make disciples of all nations” and to “baptize” as well. Of course we are to love one another. The Church has never said otherwise. My purpose here was not make a long list of the Church’s attributes nor the responsibilities of individual Christians in living out their faith. I’m only trying to get a sense of what others feel was the purpose of Christ starting a church. Is it important and if it is why don’t you belong to it?

God does abide in the Church and in the Sacraments, but that is also a limited view. Jesus clearly tells us that God abides in all of us, and God in us is no less important than God in the Church or in the Eucharist.

No less important, but different. The logical conclusion to your statement is that the Church doesn’t really matter as long as Jesus abides within me. Christ’s presence in the Eucharist is how he abides in us. Yes, we can have a spiritual communion of sorts, but He commanded us to eat His flesh and drink His blood for a reason, not just another way He can be present with us, but the primary manner.

I would answer your friend who says one can pray at home by agreeing and in fact saying that one SHOULD pray at home…

Yes, of course we should pray at home. Again, Jesus started a Church. Would He have done that if praying at home was sufficient in itself?

A “holier than thou” attitude, whether in a person or in a church, makes one ripe for a great fall. Jesus preached humility and that the greatest among us should be the servant of the least.

If you will read my original post I think I may it very clear that no “holier than thou” attitude is meant or implied in what I am saying and I don’t want this to deteriorate into that argument. I know many Protestants who live an extraordinary Christian life. That is not my argument nor the point of this thread.

To answer your question, consider what Jesus told us was necessary for true union with God. Did He talk about belonging to a church? Or did He tell us that we should love God and our neighbor totally and without condition? Did He say that a church with “divine offices” was the only true church, or did He say that where two or more were gathered in His name, He would be amongst them?

I take then, that you don’t believe the Church has much function. It is only a relationship with Jesus that is important. My response is that the Catholic Church is that relationship. It is why He created the Church and once He created it a relationship with Him would mean a relationship with His Church.

 

[SteveVH]

I looked up Ephesians 1.22 It says that Jesus Christ is the Head of the Church - And us believers are united to Him

And just how are we united to Him? Through the sacraments given to us by Him through His Church.

 

[SteveVH]

Everyone who does what Jesus commanded, that one is from the Church.

I couldn’t agree more. And how do you know if you are doing what Jesus commanded? He commanded us to eat His flesh and drink His blood and even went so far as to say that those who do not have no life within them. Do you do this?

The denominations that go against what the bible says ( ex: allowing gay marriage, abortion, etc) those aren’t in communion with the Church, because they aren’t in communion with Christ.

Again I agree with you, however, isn’t the judgment on whether or not someone is going “against what the bible says” a little subjective? As a Catholic, I believe literally what Jesus told us concerning the Eucharist. I would imagine that you don’t. We believe that He commanded us to eat His body and drink His blood and that if you do not then you are going against what the Bible says. Many Protestants would argue that we are guilty of idolatry by adoring the Eucharist. So who is going against what the Bible says? That is why we are in imperfect communion with each other.

BTW most of my beliefs can somehow compare with the Assemblies of God denomination from Pentecostalism.

Thanks, I have a better idea now although I cannot say that I know every nuance of your beliefs. I have some great friends who attend Assemblies of God. I love their “fire” and wish some of it would rub off on a lot of Catholics I know.

 

[choy]

When one studies Sacred Scripture, the Gospels, in particular, it becomes abundantly evident that Jesus did nothing without purpose. He didn’t just kill time and make off-handed remarks or engage in some meaningles task. I maintain that if Jesus started a church, then that church is necessary for union with God. Why would He possibly start a church if it didn’t matter?

I would like to make something very clear here. I am in no way saying or implying that those in the Catholic Church are in any way better people, nor are non-Catholics destined to eternal damnation. However, all non-Catholic Christian faiths are in imperfect communion with the Church that Jesus founded, that being the Catholic Church.

The Church is not just an institution, guiding people toward salvation. The Church is, in reality, salvation itself. Jesus abides in His Church through the sacraments, most especially the Holy Eucharist. His Church is to continue the work that He did while He was on earth. It is to communicate the divine offices of priest, prophet and king. The Church is the union of God with man in Jesus Christ present in the Eucharist. To be apart from the Eucharist is to be apart from union with God.

The fact that all non-Catholic Christian faiths are in imperfect communion with the Catholic Church does not mean that they do not have a “communion”, it is a real communion, but one that is lacking something, and in some cases many things.

I am interested in other’s opinions about the role of the Church in salvation.

Thanks

AMEN!

the Church is necessary for us to unite with Jesus Christ because Jesus will unite with the Church as His bride, and He is the groom. that is why we must be part of the Church

 

[Berean2]

What ChaunceyGardner said in post #10, especially the part about the finger. Also, “the Church” neither lived the sinless life, nor died the perfect atonement, nor resurrected for our justification, nor sits @ the right hand of the Father to intercede for us.

 

[SteveVH]

What ChaunceyGardner said in post #10, especially the part about the finger. Also, “the Church” neither lived the sinless life, nor died the perfect atonement, nor resurrected for our justification, nor sits @ the right hand of the Father to intercede for us.

The Church’s Head is Christ himself, its members are the Body. He lives within the Church through the sacraments. The Church is Christ, the one who died and was ressurected. When you belong to a church started by man, which does not even ackowledge or know the sacraments, this concept may be more difficult to grasp. But He is truly present within the Catholic Church. It is His Church, not Luther’s or Calvin’s or the next preacher who opens up a church in the local mall. I would invite you to explore the sacraments, read the early church Fathers and scrutinize the claims of the Catholic Church as to being the one, true Church founded by Jesus Himself.