Is the church's message of charity contributing to socialism?

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2 Thessalonians 3:10
Good point. I think some people with blind passion want to help because it makes them (the helper) feel better. Could this form of blind passion in and of itself be considered self-righteous and lacking careful discernment and humility? Open the mind to consider it, regardless of feelings. I think so.
 
Jesus said “I come not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance,” and also, “The whole have no need of a physician.”

That would address how our attitude should be to those making “bad free will choices.” And Catholic charity, coming from loving our neighbors as ourselves, would have us feel other’s distress as if it were our own. Mercy kisses judgement, in this case, and leads us all to Heaven who look for ways to work towards it on earth.
**
Peace,
Kathryn Ann**:heaven:
Regarding innocent mistakes, I agree. Regarding blind passion without discernment for dishonesty, I disagree.
 
Why should someone deliberately lying to get your help be worthy of help?
(Assuming the lie is not justified by life and death situation or whatever)
How do you determine they are lying. And the presense of your statement in parenthesis hints at the difficulty and dangers of doing so.
 
How do you determine they are lying. And the presense of your statement in parenthesis hints at the difficulty and dangers of doing so.
Take my personal exmple of someone ringing at my door claiming to be in need for money because of hunger barely able to speak german but with a clear worded in plastic enveloped piece of paper, describing her alleged situation.

Its not reasonable to assume her story is correct, even if one disbelieves news reports about organized beggar activity.
 
Take my personal exmple of someone ringing at my door claiming to be in need for money because of hunger barely able to speak german but with a clear worded in plastic enveloped piece of paper, describing her alleged situation.

Its not reasonable to assume her story is correct, even if one disbelieves news reports about organized beggar activity.
Do you know the person wasnt hungry?
 
Do you know the person wasnt hungry?
I did not say she claimed to be hungry. She claimed she needed money to avoid hunger.

But someone sent her in a planned attempt, probably ringing all doors in the neighborhood, to have her collect money. That was obvious due to the written paper she carried. If she did wirte it herself, she would have been clever enough not to ring doors in the suburbs to avoid hunger, but instead head for government offices to collect her wellfare funds. If someone else wrote it for her, he probably gives her enough to survive and some share of the money and keeps the rest for himself.

In either case the claim of being threatened by hunger was given the circumstances very likely untrue.

Furthermore giving money would make the buisiness model of the organizers more profitable, encouraging them to encourage more people to ring and tell lies.

Why should i give someone money, if the need he claims seems to be lie and if it likely encourages further lying?

Edit: An apologist staff seems to agree:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=94229&highlight=beggers
“Yes, it is allowable to refuse to give money to panhandlers, especially to those who do not appear to need it or who appear as though they would waste it.”

The word is “appear”, i am not required to proof beyond doubt that my suspicions are wrong, they just have to reasonable.
 
I did not say she claimed to be hungry. She claimed she needed money to avoid hunger.

But someone sent her in a planned attempt, probably ringing all doors in the neighborhood, to have her collect money. That was obvious due to the written paper she carried. If she did wirte it herself, she would have been clever enough not to ring doors in the suburbs to avoid hunger, but instead head for government offices to collect her wellfare funds. If someone else wrote it for her, he probably gives her enough to survive and some share of the money and keeps the rest for himself.

In either case the claim of being threatened by hunger was given the circumstances very likely untrue.

Furthermore giving money would make the buisiness model of the organizers more profitable, encouraging them to encourage more people to ring and tell lies.

Why should i give someone money, if the need he claims seems to be lie and if it likely encourages further lying?
Everyone needs money to avoid hunger.

I understand your concern but Jesus didnt say to check someone’s veracity before you help them. The lengths to which someone will go to get help, including lying, I cant account for but the lengths to which someone would go to avoid doing whats asked of us is no less fascinating.

Because we arent charged with the responsibilty of determining who is legitimate and who isnt. Our choice to help or not help is separate from the honesty of the seeker of the help
 
Because we arent charged with the responsibilty of determining who is legitimate and who isnt. Our choice to help or not help is separate from the honesty of the seeker of the help
Seriously?

So if someone approached me, who looks like Bill Gates, calls himself Bill Gates and tells me that although he is Bill Gates he still needs all the property i own now, otherwise he’ll die of hunger, i should give it to him?

Because i would be able to survive on welfare checks, so i do not realy need my property and if he says so, why should i think it a lie?

And mind this apologist answer to similar problem:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=94229&highlight=beggers
 
Tell me where in the Bible Jesus told us to let the government care for our widows and orphans? Tell me where Jesus ever told us that a different system other than the Church was to help care for the poor?

What is happening through governments is theft. Plain and simple, taking people’s earnings and property to give to others is theft. I am a Christian and I understand God’s dictates to care for the poor. In addition to paying my taxes, I contribute to my parishes (I attend 2) and also to pro-life organizations in my area. I give to other charities as I deem wise.

Government programs are rife with waste and fraud. They create larger problems in society and usually only bring harm to those they espouse to help. It’s not just my opinion, look at the last 40 + years of social welfare through the government and tell me that things have improved. To the contrary.

But it’s not the Church’s fault for any of this. We are still charged to take care of the poor. Unfortunately, the message has been usurped by politicians to justify taking our private property to achieve their own re-election instead of what they are supposed to do, which is uphold the Constitution through the writing of necessary and judicious legislation.

:mad:
 
What is happening through governments is theft. Plain and simple, taking people’s earnings and property to give to others is theft.
Not always, if someone is for example in diry danger, using others property to save him, is not always theft.

E.g. if someone needs a medicine and the owner of the medicine is not present to give his consent, than taking the medicine without asking would not be theft in my eyes.

For government similar situations arise, when some large catatstrophe happens, then immidiate help is needed and government is allowed and should use tax payers money to organize relief activity.

edit:
Of course if government would be limited to such help, nobody would care about the size of the welfare state.
 
Not always, if someone is for example in diry danger, using others property to save him, is not always theft.

E.g. if someone needs a medicine and the owner of the medicine is not present to give his consent, than taking the medicine without asking would not be theft in my eyes.

For government similar situations arise, when some large catatstrophe happens, then immidiate help is needed and government is allowed and should use tax payers money to organize relief activity.

edit:
Of course if government would be limited to such help, nobody would care about the size of the welfare state.
I could not disagree more. Private charity is ALWAYS faster and more effective than that given through governments. When disasters happen, it is private companies and individuals that get there first and give the most help. Governments, like giant ships, move very slowly and have to go through legal channels in order to help in any way, unless they overcome their own Constitutions, which ours has done (the President should not promise money to anyone since it is not within his Constitutional duties and limitations to do so. That belongs entirely to the Congress, especially the House of Representatives, since they are closest to the people’s purses.). When disasters happen it is private organizations which have the flexibility to respond within hours.

As for the medicine scenario, phone calls can be made and action taken IMMEDIATELY, when not done through the government either state or federal.
 
Seriously?

So if someone approached me, who looks like Bill Gates, calls himself Bill Gates and tells me that although he is Bill Gates he still needs all the property i own now, otherwise he’ll die of hunger, i should give it to him?

Because i would be able to survive on welfare checks, so i do not realy need my property and if he says so, why should i think it a lie?

And mind this apologist answer to similar problem:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=94229&highlight=beggers
Well if you gave him all your property that would be your choice I guess. No one ever said you are expected to provide for ALL of someones needs. Who has advocated that? The absurdity of your exemple doesnt help you here. You over played it
 
Well if you gave him all your property that would be your choice I guess. No one ever said you are expected to provide for ALL of someones needs. Who has advocated that? The absurdity of your exemple doesnt help you here. You over played it
I understood you, that what one is asks for and able to give, one should give. Thats because you seem to be critical about judging the asker (does he need help? does it help him? is the information he gives correct?).

The moment you start giving not exactly what he ask for, you start judging him and at least assume he asked for more than he needs.
 
I could not disagree more. Private charity is ALWAYS faster and more effective than that given through governments. When disasters happen, it is private companies and individuals that get there first and give the most help. Governments, like giant ships, move very slowly and have to go through legal channels in order to help in any way, unless they overcome their own Constitutions, which ours has done (the President should not promise money to anyone since it is not within his Constitutional duties and limitations to do so. That belongs entirely to the Congress, especially the House of Representatives, since they are closest to the people’s purses.). When disasters happen it is private organizations which have the flexibility to respond within hours.

As for the medicine scenario, phone calls can be made and action taken IMMEDIATELY, when not done through the government either state or federal.
You are correct that just because in such circumstances “theft” would be moral, it does not mean the government is well equipped for the task.

But i would not say always. Think about the situation, where the US military is active in some region and some disaster happens. The military is equipped to transport large amount of goods and if its already in a region, this head start might make up for the reduced efficiency.

I know, why should the government employ an army and send it somewhere to kill people. Thats a good question, but if the government has done sone, using then the resources for disaster help while forcing the taxpayer to pay for it, could be in itself moral.
 
👍
Tell me where in the Bible Jesus told us to let the government care for our widows and orphans? Tell me where Jesus ever told us that a different system other than the Church was to help care for the poor?

What is happening through governments is theft. Plain and simple, taking people’s earnings and property to give to others is theft. I am a Christian and I understand God’s dictates to care for the poor. In addition to paying my taxes, I contribute to my parishes (I attend 2) and also to pro-life organizations in my area. I give to other charities as I deem wise.

Government programs are rife with waste and fraud. They create larger problems in society and usually only bring harm to those they espouse to help. It’s not just my opinion, look at the last 40 + years of social welfare through the government and tell me that things have improved. To the contrary.

But it’s not the Church’s fault for any of this. We are still charged to take care of the poor. Unfortunately, the message has been usurped by politicians to justify taking our private property to achieve their own re-election instead of what they are supposed to do, which is uphold the Constitution through the writing of necessary and judicious legislation.

:mad:
👍
 
If society attached a positive stimulus to “Good” behaviors and a negative stimulus to “Bad” behaviors, society’s eroding character and sophistication would not matter so much. But we aren’t. It’s sad, but as the church’s influence fades, willful risky behaviors will bail out those who choose risky behaviors by taxing whose who work hard to be good. As much as I prefer that society free willingly choose character and sophistication, Libertarianism can give the necessary justice and feedback to modify the behaviors of individuals by holding them responsible for their own free will choices. Honest mistakes happen, and those people need help, but there needs to be some accountability.
 
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