Is the current trial system good or bad?

  • Thread starter Thread starter fakename
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
One last matter. I think there is a misunderstanding about what “reasonable doubt” is. This is the definition that is used by all the federal district courts in the Fifth U.S. Circuit. It’s considered one of the better definitions out there.

A reasonable doubt is a doubt based upon reason and common sense, and not the mere possibility of innocence. A reasonable doubt is the kind of doubt that would make a reasonable person hesitate to act. Proof beyond a reasonable doubt, therefore, must be proof of such a convincing character that a reasonable person would not hesitate to rely and act upon it. However, proof beyond a reasonable doubt does not mean proof beyond all possible doubt.
Very good. I saw one juror tell why she voted to acquit Anthony, and her statements amounted to a desire to see proof beyond all possible doubt. IOW, she appeared to have relied on the mere possibility of innocence.

I was on a civil suit jury once, and the juror personalities were quite diverse. I noticed that some emerged dominant while others were passive. One was particularly obnoxious; she was talking constantly throughout the trial, so I asked the bailiff to have the judge shut her up so I could hear what was being said by the attorneys. She got away with this because she worked for the court and knew everyone. I was tempted to vote opposite the way she did just to spite her, so jury personality conflicts can play a significant role in what a jury decides.

Someone earlier in this thread said that victims have no rights. It might seem that way at times, but we must remember that the perpetrator of a crime has committed a crime against society; that’s why they announce in court, “The people of the state of Florida vs. Cacey Anthony.”
 

Now, I remember one time in a jury pool, the prosecutor asked us how many
of us went to church regularly? At the time I did, so I and several others raised our hands.
This made her - the prosecutor - look uncomfortable.
So she basically told us, up front, that the young man on trial for Murder had in fact
not killed ANYBODY. IN FACT, he had not even been inside the business when the
foul deed took place. IN FACT, she told us, he was sitting in the car, alone in the backseat, and unarmed. I was APPALLED that this fellow was on trial for Murder.
She had just admitted to us that he was not even on the premises where the crime took place. …
What the prosecutor and/or defense attorneys say is not evidence. I hope the judge told the jury that.
 
I think our trial system is OK, but not as good as it was in the past.

First we need to consider that statistics give us a basic insight into the ideas behind our system. When you try to eliminate the possibility of false positives you increase the chance of false negatives. I believe this was proved by Bayes. A false positive would be guilty when truly innocent. Likewise a false negative would be innocent when truly guilty. In order to lessen one we will increase the other. Our system is supposed to decrease finding the innocent guilty. That necessarily means we will have more guilty go free. We have to accept this consequence if we want to protect the innocent.

We see quite a few cases in the news where the public thinks a guilty person goes free. But there are plenty of cases where people are convicted on evidence I would think is not compelling. These stories might not be as sensation. And really unless you work in a court the only way you know about a court case is what the news decides is important.

The defense does have many protections and some advantages. People will often think these are too much when they see people seemingly getting away with a crime.

But over the years the prosecution has gained some tremendous advantages in the US’s system. In the past jurors actually investigated the evidence themselves and could ask questions. They were not sequestered and allowed to only listen.

In the past citizens could much more easily bring charges to the grand jury and they did not have full time prosecutors whose job it was to bring charges. This has created a huge advantage for the state which is able to get away with its own crimes and as has been said a grand jury will indict a ham sandwich.

There was also the theory of juror nullification where a juror could invalidate the law if he thought the law wrong. I forget the history of this, but I feel fairly confident that modern courts really try to eliminate anyone who would use this tool from a jury. Nullification was a check on state power.

In my opinion what has happened is the state’s power has grown tremendously. The citizen is in many ways has lost advantages. But there are some advantages given to citizens that are mostly illogical and I am tempted to believe are, if anything, designed to sew chaos. The Miranda warning is one example. Our legal system proclaims that everyone is wise enough to vote and have full privileges as a citizen, every citizen is required to know the hundreds of thousands of laws he is subject to (ignorance of the law is no excuse) and yet no one is required to know their simple right to remain silent. If the police dont remind a suspect of this right the evidence they gather may be excluded. That men who are alleged to have wisdom and good judgement can develop such a system suggests that the system must be pretty rotten underneath.
 
The defense does have many protections and some advantages. People will often think these are too much when they see people seemingly getting away with a crime.

But over the years the prosecution has gained some tremendous advantages in the US’s system. In the past jurors actually investigated the evidence themselves and could ask questions. They were not sequestered and allowed to only listen.
In actuality, the defense has few advantages. The only advantage is the presumption of innocence and the burden of proof being placed on the State. Other than that, the State has the the huge advantages of unlimited funds and personnel. (Which is one of the reasons that the burden is placed on the State to prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt.

I have practiced criminal defense for 16 years. One really doesn’t understand the power imbalance. You really sense the imbalance until you have reviewed the DA’s file during discovery. When you see the number of police reports filed on an average misdemeanor trespassing case, you get a true sense.

Jurors have never had the right to investigate cases on their own. In fact, at common law, jurors were sequestered during the pendancy of the trial. Please cite a source for this.
In the past citizens could much more easily bring charges to the grand jury and they did not have full time prosecutors whose job it was to bring charges. This has created a huge advantage for the state which is able to get away with its own crimes and as has been said a grand jury will indict a ham sandwich.
Once again, please cite a source. Citizens have never had much access to grand juries. Accessing them and presenting cases to them has always been a prosecutoral function. In the United States in particular, prosecution is a governmental function.

In England, a few private prosecutions are allowed. However, in the United States, no provision has ever been made for private prosecutions.
There was also the theory of juror nullification where a juror could invalidate the law if he thought the law wrong. I forget the history of this, but I feel fairly confident that modern courts really try to eliminate anyone who would use this tool from a jury. Nullification was a check on state power.
You don’t need to say much. You’re one of those jury nullification people. Nullification is only relevent in a small, insignificant number of cases. The case law is abundantly clear: if the defense requests a nullification instruction, the judge must give it.
In my opinion what has happened is the state’s power has grown tremendously. The citizen is in many ways has lost advantages. But there are some advantages given to citizens that are mostly illogical and I am tempted to believe are, if anything, designed to sew chaos. The Miranda warning is one example.
Are you even familiar with the Miranda ruling beyond just what you have seen in TV cop shows? Yeah. On NYPD Blue or The Closer or Police Woman or Hill Street Blues or Law & Order, the bad guy gets away because “he wasn’t read his rights.” Miranda only applies when the Defendant gives a statement under custodial interrogation. As cops have gotten smarter, Miranda has become more and more irrelevant. They have started using confession forms that have each right spelled out with a blank for the defendant to initial. Seriously, the number of confessions (not cases, but confessions) that get kicked out due to Miranda is insignificant.
 
Someone earlier in this thread said that victims have no rights. It might seem that way at times, but we must remember that the perpetrator of a crime has committed a crime against society; that’s why they announce in court, “The people of the state of Florida vs. Cacey Anthony.”
There is a place that victims have recourse to…It’s called the civil justice system.

The criminal system exists to punish people for having committed crimes (as indictments in Texas are required to state) “Against the peace and dignity of the State.”

The civil system primarily exists to remedy harms done by private individuals against private individuals.
 
…We see quite a few cases in the news where the public thinks a guilty person goes free. …
The statement used most often was, “Letting ten guilty men go free is better than convicting a single innocent man.” But this has morphed into, “Letting ten guilty men go free is better than convicting a single one of them.” We saw this in the recent appeal by a murderer on death row who was a Mexican national brought to the U.S. as an infant. His attorney appealed based on a law crafted in the 1960s. My question was why did he wait to the last minute? Why didn’t he bring it up at trial?
There was also the theory of juror nullification where a juror could invalidate the law if he thought the law wrong. I forget the history of this, but I feel fairly confident that modern courts really try to eliminate anyone who would use this tool from a jury. …
Heard of a prospective juror who was the last after 11 had been chosen. He mentioned jury nullification, and the whole court groaned. Not only was he excused, but they had to start all over again because he poisoned the 11 already selected. LOL! 😃
 
The statement used most often was, “Letting ten guilty men go free is better than convicting a single innocent man.” But this has morphed into, “Letting ten guilty men go free is better than convicting a single one of them.”
The statistics don’t bear out your assertion. The State/Government wins pretty darn close to 90 percent of criminal cases (88 percent in felonies and 89 in misdemeanors). The reversal rates are also small. Politicians and the media have created the myth of high acquittal rates to scare the public.
We saw this in the recent appeal by a murderer on death row who was a Mexican national brought to the U.S. as an infant. His attorney appealed based on a law crafted in the 1960s. My question was why did he wait to the last minute? Why didn’t he bring it up at trial?
If you are talking about the appeals brought under the Vienna Consular treaty, I hate to tell you that the guy was executed. The Supreme Court denied his appeal.
Heard of a prospective juror who was the last after 11 had been chosen. He mentioned jury nullification, and the whole court groaned. Not only was he excused, but they had to start all over again because he poisoned the 11 already selected. LOL! 😃
That was a bonehead error brought on the part of the judge. The case law is clear that jurors have the right to bring up nullification. Chances are that the juror was probably getting aggressive and obnoxious about it. The other possibility is that the judge was being overly cautious. Lot’s of judges are so afraid of being reversed on appeal that they grant mistrials at the drop of a hat. Don’t totally rely on the media for trial coverage. They often report half the story.
 
The statistics don’t bear out your assertion. The State/Government wins pretty darn close to 90 percent of criminal cases (88 percent in felonies and 89 in misdemeanors). The reversal rates are also small. Politicians and the media have created the myth of high acquittal rates to scare the public.
I was speaking of the attitude, which is to win at all costs. And why would the media want to scare the public? I understand politicians, but the media has a record of not reporting news of interest to the public. That’s what gave birth to Fox News.
If you are talking about the appeals brought under the Vienna Consular treaty, I hate to tell you that the guy was executed. The Supreme Court denied his appeal.
I know, but my question still stands. Why did he wait?
That was a bonehead error brought on the part of the judge. The case law is clear that jurors have the right to bring up nullification. Chances are that the juror was probably getting aggressive and obnoxious about it. The other possibility is that the judge was being overly cautious.
The more likely reason is that most people don’t know about jury nullification, and their lack of knowledge helps the judge, et al, control them.
Lot’s of judges are so afraid of being reversed on appeal that they grant mistrials at the drop of a hat.
I can’t imagine why. Except for the elected, they are appointed for life, and their salaries can’t be reduced. Look at the Ninth Circuit. Most overturned court around, but no justice has been fired.
Don’t totally rely on the media for trial coverage. They often report half the story.
Or none of the story.
 
Jurors have never had the right to investigate cases on their own. In fact, at common law, jurors were sequestered during the pendancy of the trial. Please cite a source for this.
The “Self-Informing” Jury of the Middle Ages
These panels of twelve
freemen established the basis from which the modern civil
jury would grow. Unlike a modern jury, however, these pan-
els were self-informing. This means that they were expected
to come to cour t with preexisting knowledge of the facts…
Courts upheld this right well into the seventeenth century.
The American Bar Association,

americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/migrated/jury/moreinfo/dialoguepart1.authcheckdam.pdf
Once again, please cite a source. Citizens have never had much access to grand juries. Accessing them and presenting cases to them has always been a prosecutoral function. In the United States in particular, prosecution is a governmental function.
In the early decades of the United States grand juries played a major role in public matters. During that period counties followed the traditional practice of requiring all decisions be made by at least twelve of the grand jurors, (e.g., for a twenty-three-person grand jury, twelve people would constitute a bare majority). Any citizen could bring a matter before a grand jury directly, from a public work that needed repair, to the delinquent conduct of a public official, to a complaint of a crime, and grand juries could conduct their own investigations. In that era most criminal prosecutions were conducted by private parties, either a law enforcement officer, a lawyer hired by a crime victim or his family, or even by laymen. A layman could bring a bill of indictment to the grand jury; if the grand jury found there was sufficient evidence for a trial, that the act was a crime under law, and that the court had jurisdiction, it would return the indictment to the complainant. The grand jury would then appoint the complaining party to exercise the authority of an attorney general, that is, one having a general power of attorney to represent the state in the case. The grand jury served to screen out incompetent or malicious prosecutions.[4] The advent of official public prosecutors in the later decades of the 19th century largely displaced private prosecutions.[5]
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_jury#History
Are you even familiar with the Miranda ruling beyond just what you have seen in TV cop shows? Yeah. On NYPD Blue or The Closer or Police Woman or Hill Street Blues or Law & Order, the bad guy gets away because “he wasn’t read his rights.” Miranda only applies when the Defendant gives a statement under custodial interrogation. As cops have gotten smarter, Miranda has become more and more irrelevant. They have started using confession forms that have each right spelled out with a blank for the defendant to initial. Seriously, the number of confessions (not cases, but confessions) that get kicked out due to Miranda is insignificant.
Yes, I am somewhat familiar with the ruling and its implications and not from TV. I simply mentioned the logic of Miranda and made not mention of how often a failure to advise a suspect of his rights has led to an exclusion of evidence.
 
I was speaking of the attitude, which is to win at all costs. And why would the media want to scare the public? I understand politicians, but the media has a record of not reporting news of interest to the public. That’s what gave birth to Fox News.
Have you ever heard of yellow journalism? Sensationalism? “If it bleeds, it leads.” Did you miss the chapters on how the press caused the Spanish American War and was somewhat responsible for World War 1? Ever notice that Nancy Grace works for CNN. not Fox? Scarey sells papers and raises ratings.
I know, but my question still stands. Why did he wait?
No one raised the issue at the time. Probably no one had thought of it.
I can’t imagine why. Except for the elected, they are appointed for life, and their salaries can’t be reduced. Look at the Ninth Circuit. Most overturned court around, but no justice has been fired.
Or none of the story.
The ultra-left wacky Ninth Circuit (and its sibling on the other extreme–the ultra-conservative and equally squirrely never-met-a-death-sentence-it-didn’t-affirm nutty Fifth Circuit) are appellate courts with some of the worst legal reasoning in the history of American jurisprudence. Generally, appellate courts rarely get reversed by their higher courts.

Reversal rates are something trial judges lose sleep over. In states where the judges stand before the voters by either contested election or retention election, reversal rates are always campaign issues.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top